Religion II

[thaskalos]

Are the "Jews", and the "Israelis"...one and the same?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

You continue to think literal minded biblical Christianity is the measure of all religions and the only way to understand the divine and the universe. The word "theism" is very limiting.

Your literal minded "biblical" theism, even more limiting
You hide behind words.

I got news for you, metaphor and allegory point to concepts moslty non verbal and grander than the words alone.

Words may be used skillfully to paint much more colorful and transcendent "images" than just your literal "god vs the devil", "black vs white" babble

No, no, no...you don't get it. In your make-believe spiritual-psychological world of fictional allegories, you don't get to redefine words in the real world. By definition, "theism" means that God simultaneously transcends his creation and is immanent within it.

It is you who hides behind all your fake, phony-baloney, plastic banana, good time rock 'n' roll, fictional allegories because, as Paul teaches, all unregenerate people hate God and do not want to retain him in their knowledge. Your elaborate, psycho-babble, unintelligible allegories are designed to empty your mind of the true knowledge of God.

Let me prove this from scripture before our newest "God-lover" on this forum goes ballistic, since he claimed I called him a terrible name -- no doubt unjustifiably in his mind -- even though I spoke biblical truth.

Rom 1:18-32
18[i] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, HATERS OF GOD, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.[/quote]
NASB

And,

John 15:18, 24-25
18 "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 24 "If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well. 25 "But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, 'They hated Me without a cause.'
NASB

There are only two domains in this world. The domain (or kingdom) of Satan (Lk 4:6; Col 1:13), who is the "god of this world" (2Cor 4:4), i.e. the world system to which all sinners (unbelievers) are card-carrying members. And then there is the kingdom of God to which all the saints called by God belong. And, of course, Jesus was never part of the world system that hates him so much -- just as much as this world's god does (cf. Jn 8:23; 18:36).

So, here's the deal. Quit playing games. Theism is what theism is. Just because you don't agree with a theistic worldview doesn't give you license to change definitions. Just be honest for once in your life and admit that you don't buy into theism and that you hold to other views. End of story. There's no need for you to deride people whose only "sin" is to interpret the bible in its sensible sense the way Jesus, the apostles and the prophets interpreted their own scriptures.

But just remember this: You can hide behind your fictional allegories in the here and now -- this you can do, and skip merrily and happily along in life. But at the end of your life when all your make-believe allegories die with you and you meet the Author of Life to give an account for your life, the Gospel message of life, which you so hated so much in this life by hiding that glorious and blessed message behind your allegories, will come back and bite you very hard because it is that very Gospel that will judge you. You will be judged because you did not obey the Gospel (2Thes 1:8-9; 1Pet 4:17).

John 12:48-50
48 "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me commandment, what to say, and what to speak. 50 "And I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."
NASB

So...where are you going to run? Where are you going to hide? The Gospel is inevitably going to catch up to you one day. Why do you persist in fooling yourself into believing you can outrun it?

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Are the "Jews", and the "Israelis"...one and the same?

All I know is, they are a magical people with powers far beyond your comprehension.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Are the "Jews", and the "Israelis"...one and the same?

Where do the Hebrews fit it in? Or do they?

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Where do the Hebrews fit it in? Or do they?

I think I'm about to pass out from boredom.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Fallacy of Special Pleading!

Really? There are bona fide exceptions to every rule. Hcap's lame theory that the passion of Christ is mere fictional allegory is a fantastic example, since that theory raises more than a few questions that scream for rational and coherent answers.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Can something still exist, even if scripture makes no mention of it? Or is scripture the "be-all", and "end-all"?

Huh? Are computers mentioned in scripture? Airplanes? Cellphones?

For what are you grasping this time?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

I think I'm about to pass out from boredom.

Bored with this and too busy for that? Just no pleasing you unbelievers, is there?

Why didn't you take up Hcap's pathetic slack and take on the challenging questions I presented in 8351 that I addressed to you? Hcap obviously has no answers, so why don't you love your neighbor as yourself and help the old' boy out? Make yourself useful on this thread.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by bollixed-up-car

It is you who hides behind all your fake, phony-baloney, plastic banana, good time rock 'n' roll, fictional allegories because, as Paul teaches, all unregenerate people hate God and do not want to retain him in their knowledge. Your elaborate, psycho-babble, unintelligible allegories are designed to empty your mind of the true knowledge of God.

Let me prove this from scripture before our newest "God-lover" on this forum goes ballistic, since he claimed I called him a terrible name -- no doubt unjustifiably in his mind -- even though I spoke biblical truth.

Please do not post endless chapter and verse from your distorted, mangled bible. You usually cherry pick whatever suits what you literal minded belief as "proof"

I usually skip over them.
Pick one and make your point.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Huh? Are computers mentioned in scripture? Airplanes? Cellphones?

For what are you grasping this time?

You keep saying that "scripture doesn't say this"...and, "scripture doesn't teach that"...as if scripture is the only validating mechanism by which we can carry on a religious debate. So, I am asking if you acknowledge that there might be a particular religious argument which could be valid even if the scripture of our choice makes no mention of it. Or is "scripture", in your opinion, the total and complete "Word of God"...which includes everything, and excludes nothing, of what the "religious person" really needs?

A local grocery store here claims that..."If we don't have it, then you don't need it". Can the same thing be said about "scripture"...in your opinion?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

You keep saying that "scripture doesn't say this"...and, "scripture doesn't teach that"...as if scripture is the only validating mechanism by which we can carry on a religious debate. So, I am asking if you acknowledge that there might be a particular religious argument which could be valid even if the scripture of our choice makes no mention of it. Or is "scripture", in your opinion, the total and complete "Word of God"...which includes everything, and excludes nothing, of what the "religious person" really needs?

A local grocery store here claims that..."If we don't have it, then you don't need it". Can the same thing be said about "scripture"...in your opinion?

(emphasis mine)

Absolutely! And it's not my mere opinion either. I'm adding a little context to the pertinent texts.

2 Peter 1:1-5
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
NASB

"Pertaining to life" means the gift of eternal life, i.e. salvation. And of course, "true knowledge" and his "magnificent promises" can only be in scripture.

I give you credit for asking an intelligent question.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Please do not post endless chapter and verse from your distorted, mangled bible. You usually cherry pick whatever suits what you literal minded belief as "proof"

I usually skip over them.
Pick one and make your point.

The point is: Quit projecting your failures unto me! You're the one hiding behind your allegorical fictions so that you hide from God's truth. This is precisely what Paul teaches in Romans 1. You are full of futile speculations on how to do this, how not to that, etc.

And then you complain that I cherry-pick in one breath and then in the next complain about the "endless chapter and verse"? Should I quite cherry-picking relevant passages and quote the entire bible instead? You're a piece of work.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Pantheism is not taught in scripture.

God transcends all that he created, which includes the universe.

If God is the universe and the universe is God, then God would have had to create himself which would be a self-contradictory belief sytem, and very obviously a violation of the Law of Noncontradiction.

But thanks for speaking about things, which by your own admission, you cannot understand either.

You may remember a basic definition of God from religion 101. That is that God is omnipresent. God is also multidimensional (obviously) as well. So that means that God can be everything (the universe) and be an entity as well.

To your other point, the reason we cannot understand God is because we have very finite minds and God is infinite. Which means understanding God is beyond our comprehension. However experiencing God, where the mind cannot go, but consciousness can, does give a greater understanding of God that words cannot describe. So it won't be in your "scripture".

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Hcap's lame theory that the passion of Christ is mere fictional allegory is a fantastic example, since that theory raises more than a few questions that scream for rational and coherent answers.

Such as?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

You may remember a basic definition of God from religion 101. That is that God is omnipresent. God is also multidimensional (obviously) as well. So that means that God can be everything (the universe) and be an entity as well.

To your other point, the reason we cannot understand God is because we have very finite minds and God is infinite. Which means understanding God is beyond our comprehension. However experiencing God, where the mind cannot go, but consciousness can, does give a greater understanding of God that words cannot describe. So it won't be in your "scripture".

God's "omnipresence" does not mean that he is the universe. To be present in all places at all times does not mean God is the place. I can be in and outside my house at the same time. That doesn't mean I am the house.

Also, as stated previously, the universe is God's creation. But if God is the universe and the universe is God, then God would have had to existed and not existed at the same time and in the same sense in order to create himself. And that's logically impossible. It's self-contradictory.

Furthermore, pantheism also defies another law of logic -- the Law of Identity. This law states: A is A. If something exists it has a nature - an essence. A cannot be non-A. An entity cannot have multiple identities. A dog cannot be a cat, or horse cannot also be a cow, etc. God is a personal, rational, moral being in his very essence; therefore he cannot be an impersonal, irrational, amoral universe. He can be one or the other, but not both.

Your objection that we mere mortals can have no true understanding or knowledge of the eternal God is weak at two points. The Father was in his Son Jesus and he came to reveal himself to us. (You truly don't know Jesus very well, do you?)

Secondly, God has other attributes besides omnipresence. He's also omnipotent and is quite capable of revealing himself and his truth to his chosen people. Is anything too difficult for God (Jer 32:17,27)?

And if these obstacles aren't enough for you, then consider these words of your "best friend": "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." (Mk 13:31). If God is the universe and the universe is God, then Jesus is teaching that God (including himself) will one day cease to exist. But how can that which is eternal ever cease to exist? Once again, you run smack into the brick wall of the Law of Noncontradiction.