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12-01-2017, 08:24 PM
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#4696
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnlgfnk
That is, physical systems are indeterminate.
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No. Determinacy only requires that something be measurable within limits. See M-W.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnlgfnk
Yet, in your link...
https://www.math.utah.edu/~pa/math/q1.html
...what is addressed is the "specifically" Greek contribution, "specifically" the square root of 2. Dr. Alfeld is not adding, subtracting, etc., he is performing the specific function of extracting the square root of 2. |
No. He is giving a proof. Extracting the square root is an algorithm for determining the value of the square root through recursive approximations which converge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnlgfnk
Further, he enlists the specific function of logic to explain the math, a logic which must be formal and exacting, to be coherent.
If physical systems are indeterminate, or "fuzzy", how is such determinate thought above only physical?
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- As I explained above, physical systems are not indeterminate.
- Mathematics is not physical. It is abstract.
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12-01-2017, 11:56 PM
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#4697
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
Mathematically!?
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Yes, mathematically!
Would you agree that logic is mathematical?
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12-02-2017, 12:36 AM
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#4698
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: St. Louis suburb
Posts: 1,761
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor
No. Determinacy only requires that something be measurable within limits. See M-W.
No. He is giving a proof. Extracting the square root is an algorithm for determining the value of the square root through recursive approximations which converge.
- As I explained above, physical systems are not indeterminate.
- Mathematics is not physical. It is abstract.
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You recently stated that the universe is "fuzzy". So does quantum theory:
"Quantum mechanics is generally regarded as the physical theory that is our best candidate for a fundamental and universal description of the physical world...One striking aspect of the difference between classical and quantum physics is that whereas classical mechanics presupposes that exact simultaneous values can be assigned to all physical quantities, quantum mechanics denies this possibility"...
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-uncertainty/
Are all physical facts known in any physical system, however small?
"...the idea that even a liter of space contains an infinite number of points, that space can be stretched out indefinitely without anything bad happening, and that there are quantities in nature that can vary continuously...the measure problem"...
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cr.../#.WiI1tEqnGUk
And proofs are examples of formal thought. Dr. Alfeld used "mathematical notation, which has only one possible meaning" (determinate)...
https://books.google.com/books?id=6E...proofs&f=false
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12-02-2017, 09:48 AM
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#4699
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor
Yes, mathematically!
Would you agree that logic is mathematical?
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No, I would not not. Mathematics is logical. Now, show me precisely how the example you gave violates the Law of Noncontradiction.
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12-02-2017, 10:01 AM
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#4700
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor
It depends on what "in the same sense" means.
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Since the identical phrase, "in the same sense" is used in both examples, what difference does it make? Your focus should be on what words or phrases that are different in the two statements, e.g. to give you a little hint to help your fuzzy mind along --the verb "be" in one sentence and the verb "exist" in the other. Just sayin'..... 
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Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
Last edited by boxcar; 12-02-2017 at 10:02 AM.
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12-02-2017, 04:18 PM
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#4701
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
Quote:
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Would you agree that logic is mathematical?
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No, I would not not. |
Why not?
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12-02-2017, 04:28 PM
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#4702
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor
Why not?
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Because math is grounded in logic, not the other way around.
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Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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12-02-2017, 04:31 PM
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#4703
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
Since the identical phrase, "in the same sense" is used in both examples, what difference does it make?
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Perhaps none, perhaps a great deal. I cannot judge without knowing precisely what it means.
All I know at this point is that someone thinks that some word in the original Greek translates as "to be" but not as "exist". Since I cannot read Greek I am not qualified to render an opinion.
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12-02-2017, 04:35 PM
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#4704
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
Because math is grounded in logic, not the other way around.
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What about Boolean Algebra, in which logical statements are written in mathematical notation?
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12-02-2017, 04:40 PM
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#4705
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
Because math is grounded in logic, not the other way around.
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How do you know it's not the other way around?
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12-02-2017, 06:03 PM
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#4706
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor
How do you know it's not the other way around?
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Because it's illogical? One must know how to think before dealing with abstractions.
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Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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12-02-2017, 06:49 PM
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#4707
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor
Perhaps none, perhaps a great deal. I cannot judge without knowing precisely what it means.
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Hah...poor baby -- not a enough cerebral fire power to figure this out? Tsk, tsk. Let me help you to think for yourself. If I were to state, Diane is and isn't my mother, would this necessarily be an incoherent statement, and why?
Quote:
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All I know at this point is that someone thinks that some word in the original Greek translates as "to be" but not as "exist". Since I cannot read Greek I am not qualified to render an opinion.
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Do you have being? Or are you a corpse?
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Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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12-02-2017, 09:10 PM
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#4708
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 18,962
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
Because math is grounded in logic, not the other way around.
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Exactly! 
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12-02-2017, 09:41 PM
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#4709
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
Because it's illogical?
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Circulus in probando! Circular reasoning.
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12-02-2017, 09:42 PM
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#4710
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyfox
Exactly! |
How do you know?
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