The Greatest of All Time - Bob Baffert

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

Many people are asserting the positive for beta is because he was getting other stronger drugs and this created a positive test.

People are asserting that, but with no real scientific basis that I've seen.

They are basing it off a recorded conversation in the Servis/Navarro case about getting a positive for "dex" when using SGF-1000 and saying it must be theoretically possible in this case also. That seemed like a reasonable speculation to me also.

But I read something earlier today that said it's impossible unless the drug in question is contained in whatever you are using. The testing science of it is light years over my head, but it was an expert. The person said if he's using something else, it has to contain betamethasone as one of it's ingredients to produce a positive for betamethasone. That's how sophisticated the testing has apparently become. They split it down by particles or something. If I can find the article again I'll post it. I'm not dismissing anything because it's all over my head.

[JayTris07]

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro

https://twitter.com/IndependentRed4/...27814901612546

[Half Smoke]

..................


you know the old saying:




fool me once shame on you..........fool me twice shame on me






Racing Authorities to Baffert:




fool me once shame on you..................but go ahead and fool me 29 more times





.....................(~:\





*

[cj]

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

Only organism running in a race

Just can't help yourself doubling down on dick posts lol. If the humans didn't matter, ... nevermind.

[Frost king]

Originally Posted by pandy

I think the comparison to Lance Armstrong is a good one. Lance Armstrong performed in a manner that looked improbable, if not impossible. Baffert has had several horses, especially in recent years, do the same thing, they run insanely powerful races where they go to the lead, set fast paces and never get tired. Pletcher never has horses that run like that. If they go fast early, they get tired. That's the way thoroughbreds run. You have to take into consideration the 7 horses that dropped dead in a 16 month period. That would never happen to someone like Pletcher, Motion, Clement, McGaughey, and other great trainers, it never has and it never would because they don't dope their horses up. And the other thing about Baffert is the way the industry has protected him, which smacks of corruption. When Justify tested positive after the Santa Anita Derby, and the CHRB hid it so he could qualify for the Kentucky Derby, that was corruption, plain and simple. And keep in mind, after the 7 horses died, the CHRB did nothing. And then you look at the Oaklawn posititives. After the split sample testing, the drugs in the two horses systems was much higher than the original tests. But Oaklawn actually reversed their original decision and gave the purse money back to Baffert's owners. This is the industries fault for protecting Baffert for many years and now it's going to bite them in the ass.

If Baffert is dirty with overages with therapeutic drugs, Pletcher, Shug, and Motion, are in the same boat. They have all been caught at one time or another. The only one that can stand in the room with his head held high is Christophe Clemente. He has never had a horse test positive. On the Thorograph site, for a few years, before the Belmont, they would publish what was given to the horses, in terms of therapeutic medications. There was not a single horse in the field, that had not gotten a needle in the ass at some point before the Belmont. So these people that are acting high and mighty, need to look in the mirror themselves. Like some one said, before with Lasix, the horses would pee out gallons all the time, and flush out this stuff through the system. Baffert has been sloppy and not figured out the time lag involved. Should he be suspended, of course. He should just serve his time and be done with it. Like everybody else. Just remember, it is no different than speeding. Some areas they will let you go 10 miles over and not say anything to you. But just because you got away with it today, does not mean you will get away with it tomorrow. https://horseracingwrongs.org/2013/1...-of-the-story/

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by Frost king

If Baffert is dirty with overages with therapeutic drugs, Pletcher, Shug, and Motion, are in the same boat. They have all been caught at one time or another. The only one that can stand in the room with his head held high is Christophe Clemente. He has never had a horse test positive. On the Thorograph site, for a few years, before the Belmont, they would publish what was given to the horses, in terms of therapeutic medications. There was not a single horse in the field, that had not gotten a needle in the ass at some point before the Belmont. So these people that are acting high and mighty, need to look in the mirror themselves. Like some one said, before with Lasix, the horses would pee out gallons all the time, and flush out this stuff through the system. Baffert has been sloppy and not figured out the time lag involved. Should he be suspended, of course. He should just serve his time and be done with it. Like everybody else. Just remember, it is no different than speeding. Some areas they will let you go 10 miles over and not say anything to you. But just because you got away with it today, does not mean you will get away with it tomorrow. https://horseracingwrongs.org/2013/1...-of-the-story/

John Sherriffs has never had a positive as well. Just how good was Zenyatta when you view it in the context she was clean.

[AskinHaskin]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

The same dynamic was in play when Mark McGwire was caught with androstenedione when he was hitting all those home runs. Baseball so wanted what McGwire was doing to be real, so nothing was done.

ROFL - you habitually forget that Andro' wasn't outlawed in baseball until long after McGwire retired.

Your comparison parallels one getting "caught" with bottled water (though perhaps not plastic bottles in some jurisdictions).

[AskinHaskin]

Originally Posted by Track Phantom

Baffert has been giving his horses PEDs for many, many years. His horses don't win like they do because of pain numbing. All the evidence is there both this year and historically on Baffert. The overage is a false positive similar to what was in the Servis/Navarro report.

Consider this stat. In the last 28 years of the Kentucky Derby, there have been 4 wire to wire winners and 16 horses who ran in the exacta that were setting the pace or sitting right on it (2nd/3rd).

The wire to wire winners:
Bob Baffert 3
Jason Servis 1

The exacta runners who were on the pace:
Bob Baffert 7
9 other trainers 1

Considering how these PEDs work (increasing speed, and more importantly, stamina), Baffert runners all have speed and never get tired no matter the pace scenario. It's very simple stuff, in my opinion. Show me a "supertrainer" who wins their races off the pace. Won't find it. They all go to the front and fail to fatigue at the normal rate.

All of this other mickey mouse is a bunch of noise that is coincidental to the actual problem.

LOL - so what is "the problem" then?


Hell, why limit yourself so?


In the last 43 "years of the Kentucky Derby" (whatever the hell that means) there have been 2 winners who went on to take the Triple Crown:

The Triple Crown winning trainers:

Bob Baffert 2
everyone else in the land 0




Wait a minute... I've got it...


Since every Triple Crown winner wired the Belmont, by your inference, all Triple Crown winners were trained by drug-employing cheats (regardless of whether the drugs employed were within the rules of the day, or not).


"All the evidence is there"

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by AskinHaskin

ROFL - you habitually forget that Andro' wasn't outlawed in baseball until long after McGwire retired.

Your comparison parallels one getting "caught" with bottled water (though perhaps not plastic bottles in some jurisdictions).

Andro was definitely ruled legal. Whether it was legal is a complex issue.

My point was that baseball rushed to protect McGwire rather than saying "this is a steroid" (it was the same substance that got Randy Barnes, world record holder in the Shot Put, thrown out of track and field).

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by AskinHaskin

LOL - so what is "the problem" then?


Hell, why limit yourself so?


In the last 43 "years of the Kentucky Derby" (whatever the hell that means) there have been 2 winners who went on to take the Triple Crown:

The Triple Crown winning trainers:

Bob Baffert 2
everyone else in the land 0




Wait a minute... I've got it...


Since every Triple Crown winner wired the Belmont, by your inference, all Triple Crown winners were trained by drug-employing cheats (regardless of whether the drugs employed were within the rules of the day, or not).


"All the evidence is there"

Did every TC winner get headed by a good horse at the top of the stretch in the Belmont after setting a fast pace, and then pull back away?

Nobody is saying all front runners are suspect. There's a VERY specific trip we are talking about.

[AskinHaskin]

Originally Posted by taxicab

@ Class:
Churchill will fine and suspend him.......no doubt.
They will also ban him for life.
In their eyes Baffert has damaged their product and is bad for business.
It's a business decision,no two ways about it.
Bottom line:
Baffert needs Churchill.........but they don't need him.

LOL (yeah, right)

can't wait for this to bear fruit.


We're going to protect the Derby record of the last guy whose ill-gotten success brought him to the pinnacle (in a society where, for some reason, the listed "greatest of all time" always lean heavily toward those presently living).

[AskinHaskin]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Did every TC winner get headed by a good horse at the top of the stretch in the Belmont after setting a fast pace, and then pull back away?

Nobody is saying all front runners are suspect. There's a VERY specific trip we are talking about.

The post I quoted was (seemingly) clearly talking about "wire to wire winners".


How, precisely, does the randomness of how/whether one or three Equibase guys perched atop the grandstand views whose nose is in front at a pole hundreds of yards away, and from a bad angle, pertain to whether or not there are illegal drugs in a horse's system?


And if "all the evidence is there", why then isn't it made more clear?



(maybe everybody in the All American Futurity who ever led both at the start call, and at the finish line, was illegally drugged as well? - since the inference seems heavily tethered to the randomness applied to who was in front at any certain call, no matter the angle known to the person whose assessments are later etched in stone, and no matter how right or wrong those visual assessments were)

[Track Phantom]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Did every TC winner get headed by a good horse at the top of the stretch in the Belmont after setting a fast pace, and then pull back away?

Nobody is saying all front runners are suspect. There's a VERY specific trip we are talking about.

Spot on. It seems some people are too obtuse to view these things within a logical, rationale framework. Bob Baffert, by his own admission in his 1999 book, has been giving horses illegal drugs since 1975. He also admitted to concocting a "story" for the CHRB.

Along the way, he's had numerous incidents with drugs and had healthy horses die in his care to an alarming degree.

When you put that backdrop into the context of how his horses win (shoot to the lead, get hooked and re-rally) and the number of "horses of a lifetime" he's had in just the last 5 years, it is hard for this to be more obvious.

One last thing, he is accomplishing these feats in an age when we know the PEDs are rampant in the game. So, to be a Baffert supporter, you'd have to ignore his history, ignore his lame defenses to drug violations, ignore his admittance to drugging and dishonesty about it, ignore the way his horses perform, and the style in which they do it, and most importantly, ignore that all of this has to happen over and above others cheating.

This is extraordinarily simple to an objective person. Unfortunately, what he is actually using is not detectable. The Servis/Navarro case told us that much. If this was detectable, Servis and Navarro would have been caught long ago and wouldn't have needed the FBI to intervene.

Baffert has singlehandedly fired the kill shot into the game of horse racing by tarnishing the one thing that had appeal, the Kentucky Derby. The Derby will never EVER have the same mythical quality about it. Game over.

[paulbenny]

It got pretty expensive or I would buy it. How did he convey in his book, directly using either Performance Enhancing Drugs, or medicines, or whatever you characterize, as an admittance in the book. Is there a quote in detail written words, etc.



I guess the point is, he admitted it in his book 22 years ago. So if he did, why did the authorities not perform an investigation.


I find this pretty interesting. Why is this new news? Todd Pletcher just got inducted. Clearly Frank Whitley was questionable too I would think right? and I do mean that. How do we know or not know.

[Psychotic Parakeet]

I do not have a copy of the book, but I found on a quick Google search that he admitted to giving an illegal pain-killer to one of his horses, and was suspended for a year. Ironically, that was at Los Alamitos when he was training quarter horses.