George Krikorian Drops Bombshell at CHRB Meeting

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by whodoyoulike

My post was referring to horse ownership in horse racing. I don't see how it could be considered a hobby as long as one enters their horses in legit races.

Why is it so difficult to deduct these costs as a business venture?

What is a legit race?

Do you depend on income from the horse ownership activity for your livelihood?

Check out IRC section 183 and the regulations there under. The issue of business v. hobby has been litigated many times. Anybody considering horse ownership on less than a full scale basis would be wise to be well versed on the issue.

[Afleet]

Business:

noun
1. an occupation, profession, or trade: His business is poultry farming.


2. the purchase and sale of goods in an attempt to make a profit.

3. a person, partnership, or corporation engaged in commerce, manufacturing, or a service; profit-seeking enterprise or concern.

When I buy a horse I am attempting to make a profit, so its not a hobby

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by Afleet

Business:

noun
1. an occupation, profession, or trade: His business is poultry farming.


2. the purchase and sale of goods in an attempt to make a profit.

3. a person, partnership, or corporation engaged in commerce, manufacturing, or a service; profit-seeking enterprise or concern.

When I buy a horse I am attempting to make a profit, so its not a hobby

Silly me, I forgot that Webster's trumped the IRC when it came to tax law.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by AlsoEligible

We can (and do) debate all day long on what's hurting racing and how to fix it. Some reasons are more legitimate than others. Saying that young gamblers are too stupid to learn to handicap is one of the least legitimate I've heard.

I'm 30, and I can do basic math just fine. I can hold my own at a poker table. I pour over crazy amounts of data every summer preparing for fantasy football, analyzing as many variables (maybe more) as you'd find on a PP. And every week in the fall, I spend as much time handicapping 16 football games for daily fantasy and regular fantasy leagues as you do handicapping tomorrow's Belmont card.

My lack of interest in horse racing has nothing to do with me being too lazy or stupid to put in the work. I just don't think it's an interesting or exciting sport, it reeks of mismanagement and corruption, and carries a stigma of degenerates and desperation. If it wasn't for the fact that I worked in the industry, I couldn't care less about it...like most people my age don't.

Not sure how you fix these issues, or if they even can be fixed, but dumbing things down for millennials is not the solution. That makes sense for the first few visits as others have suggested (i.e. stick to WPS and Exactas), but long term we don't need or want things to be overly simplified. Give us a good game and we'll put in the time and effort to learn how to play it. Here's a hint: we don't give two flying shits about lowering takeout rates.

You say that you can hold your own at the poker table. Is the takeout rate a concern of yours when you play poker...or don't you give "two flying shits" about it there either?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

Of course, it's a no-brainer that money is taxed multiple times and obviously that wasn't my point. I'll give an example of a roulette player who walks up and hits a $100 straight-up bet on number 17. The player is pushed $3500, takes his original $100 bet off the table and goes to the cage to cash-out. At the cage, he receives $3600 and simply walks away, nothing to sign.

Now we have a pick-4 player at the track, who puts in a $100 pick-4 ticket and hits for $3600. Goes to a cashier to collect his winnings and has to show ID and sign for the $3600, yet the monies were already taxed with the vig being anywhere from 15-20%.

I know I'm not stating anything new here, and this situation is currently being addressed with the NTRA tax reform in Congress, but at some point, this tax hypocrisy has to stop somewhere, before the total implosion of horse racing comes to pass.....It's that critical, right now.

An even BIGGER injustice is when the pick-4 player puts in a $100 ticket pick-4 ticket...and hits for $601, instead of $3,600. He now goes to the window to collect his 5-1 "return on investment"...and is told that he needs to sign an IRS form...because his ROI was 600-1. And all this while the guy next to him is collecting $5,000 unsigned...because he bet $100-straight on a daily double that paid $100 for $2.

[castaway01]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

An even BIGGER injustice is when the pick-4 player puts in a $100 ticket pick-4 ticket...and hits for $601, instead of $3,600. He now goes to the window to collect his 5-1 "return on investment"...and is told that he needs to sign an IRS form...because his ROI was 600-1. And all this while the guy next to him is collecting $5,000 unsigned...because he bet $100-straight on a daily double that paid $100 for $2.

This is definitely the worst tax-related thing the average horseplayer has to deal with. It makes absolutely no sense that it continues except this industry has no time, money, or inclination to fight for our interests.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by castaway01

This is definitely the worst tax-related thing the average horseplayer has to deal with. It makes absolutely no sense that it continues except this industry has no time, money, or inclination to fight for our interests.

Yes...the industry has no inclination to fight for our interests. And we, in turn, should stop patronizing businesses which don't keep our interests in mind. What good does it do to "love the game"...if the game doesn't love us back?

[whodoyoulike]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyC View Post

Trying to make money to cover your costs is not the definition of a business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whodoyoulike View Post

My post was referring to horse ownership in horse racing. I don't see how it could be considered a hobby as long as one enters their horses in legit races.

Why is it so difficult to deduct these costs as a business venture?


QUOTE=AndyC;2176000 .... What is a legit race?

Do you depend on income from the horse ownership activity for your livelihood?

Check out IRC section 183 and the regulations there under. The issue of business v. hobby has been litigated many times. Anybody considering horse ownership on less than a full scale basis would be wise to be well versed on the issue.

Sorry, I missed your response to my response.

I was referring to a legit race as a race which is carded for betting purposes at a race track as opposed to a race by two or more owners on a track on some out of the way farm.

Btw, I haven't checked out IRC section 183 but, I'll trust you on this.

[JustRalph]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Yes...the industry has no inclination to fight for our interests. And we, in turn, should stop patronizing businesses which don't keep our interests in mind. What good does it do to "love the game"...if the game doesn't love us back?

the only thing they understand is money........and the lack of it.

Yet.....it just keeps coming in.......horse racing, or maybe more accurately horse players are apparently immune from the basic laws of market satisfaction and price

[cj]

Originally Posted by JustRalph

the only thing they understand is money........and the lack of it.

Yet.....it just keeps coming in.......horse racing, or maybe more accurately horse players are apparently immune from the basic laws of market satisfaction and price

People say that a lot, but handle is shrinking, and that is even before inflation is taken into account.

http://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp?section=FB&area=8

From over 15 billion as late is 2004 to under 11 billion by 2011. It is stabilized a bit now but I think a lot of that is due to computer and big rebate bettors. The "regular guy" crowd shrunk and continues to do so.

The 15 billion in 2004 equates to about 19.5 billion in todays dollars. Handle in 2016 was only 55% of that amount, which is a 45% decrease. People are most definitely walking away and not in small numbers.

[AltonKelsey]

How many billions are the public prepared to pay for the joy of betting horses? We won't even count the cost of racing forms, admissions. Just the billions in takeout.

Most of the dumb money is siphoned off on lottery/casino nonsense.

Won't be drugs or whips that kill the game.

Though I must say, things appear healthier in other parts of the world. HK in particular. But that's a special case apparently.

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by Track Phantom

Don't know. I just know the issues you mentioned above are important to YOU but mean nothing to the crowd you would be marketing to (non-horse racing players). If you want them at the track and putting their money through the window to grow the handle, you better start asking them (and thinking like them).... not like a daily horse player.

I've researched the issue a variety of times and found there are 3 things that discourage people:
1. Too complicated (handicapping and betting - too intimidating for the novice)
2. Too slow (too much down time between races)
3. Poor production (lack of HD, trees obscuring the view, etc.)

You can dance around these things all you want but until there is a solution to them, the game will continue to be unappealing to 99.9% of the public. I could go on about why these are the three but I don't think I need to.

Ok...#3? I think you just added that as filler. Who the heck cares about whether or not the image is in hi def or not? If one is at the track to watch tv, they are there for the wrong reason. And if the HD issue refers to at home wagering, then we're not addressing the issue of getting people to the track anyway.....
Trees obscuring the view? HUH? Ok, is there any racetrack where the trees are so offensive that they need to be cut down?
lemme tell ya something....There are Elm trees in the infield at Saratoga that are not going anywhere. They have been there since the place was built.
I cannot imagine anyone who is so picky and grumpy, that the trees in the infield bother them that much.
There are much bigger fish to fry.
Do you really think that for example a race track management addressed all of the issues and left the trees in the infield the reaction would be "Wha? You left the trees there? That's it. Deal breaker".....Seriously?

[thespaah]

I have 40 horses. I have 70 starts. My neighbor has 40 horses. He has 30 starts...
So THIS is a reason for the status quo to be left intact?....

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by airford1

When have a significant number of owners ever made money?

Never, but it was much easier to write your loses off.

So...Just flail your arms and say "screw it. I give up"?

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by JustRalph

You will never get over "too complicated"

People under 30 can't do basic math anymore, let alone read a racing form or derive trainer intent or the other nuanced implications in PP's.

Running half as many days and a third less races might be a start, but in 20 yrs there will be very few players left.

Yep..Younger people have little patience for anything that requires effort and last more than 30 seconds. They not only want things yesterday. They also expect a positive outcome 100% of the time.....