Ritvo era begins at Santa Anita. “Takeout is too high, no question about it"

[AltonKelsey]

It's actually imbecilic to have a higher takeout on a harder bet like the exacta/tri/super. Takeout should be the same as win. The reason they do it , is they think they are 'hiding' the ripoff behind a large payout.

I can see the justification for higher take on the horizontals, but they do the opposite, in lowering those takeouts. If you play a pick 5 , you can theoretically churn only once and have action on multiple races.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Originally Posted by AltonKelsey

It's actually imbecilic to have a higher takeout on a harder bet like the exacta/tri/super. Takeout should be the same as win. The reason they do it , is they think they are 'hiding' the ripoff behind a large payout.

I can see the justification for higher take on the horizontals, but they do the opposite, in lowering those takeouts. If you play a pick 5 , you can theoretically churn only once and have action on multiple races.

I agree with you here...if they really want to see handle make a dramatic increase all they need to do is make the take-out lower on the exotics than the win pools....handle would go thru the roof...a no-brainer...makes one wonder...

[elhelmete]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

I agree with you here...if they really want to see handle make a dramatic increase all they need to do is make the take-out lower on the exotics than the win pools....handle would go thru the roof...a no-brainer...makes one wonder...

...sigh....

[whodoyoulike]

A question I have is regarding the TOC letter which states about 2200 horses available around SA but, Ritvo mentions a 3300 number is available.

A big discrepancy without using a calculator that's close to 50% which to me is huge. There should be some way to count how many horses are registered and stabled around SA surroundings ..... SA, Los Al, San Luis Rey and a couple of other locations??

Doesn't even count shippers into SA. Maybe shippers out cancels shippers in.

This clarification would go a long ways to figure out the small fields problem.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by AltonKelsey

It's actually imbecilic to have a higher takeout on a harder bet like the exacta/tri/super. Takeout should be the same as win. The reason they do it , is they think they are 'hiding' the ripoff behind a large payout.

I can see the justification for higher take on the horizontals, but they do the opposite, in lowering those takeouts. If you play a pick 5 , you can theoretically churn only once and have action on multiple races.

There is nothing like the action thrill you get in the P-5 watching the 2nd through 5th legs your horse runs out in the first leg. There is no justification for higher takeouts on horizontals.

With your logic you could also say that you have action in the win and place slots with an exacta but only churn once.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

I agree with you here...if they really want to see handle make a dramatic increase all they need to do is make the take-out lower on the exotics than the win pools....handle would go thru the roof...a no-brainer...makes one wonder...

I wouldn't be so sure. There would be a decrease by whales betting with rebates and I doubt that the regulars would significantly hike their action due to a 2-5% cut. The belief is that bettors who have avoided racing because of the high rates would be drawn in by the lower rates. Perhaps some would see an opportunity but I doubt many would make the commitment to become horseplayers.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Originally Posted by AndyC

I wouldn't be so sure. There would be a decrease by whales betting with rebates and I doubt that the regulars would significantly hike their action due to a 2-5% cut. The belief is that bettors who have avoided racing because of the high rates would be drawn in by the lower rates. Perhaps some would see an opportunity but I doubt many would make the commitment to become horseplayers.

Alton is right...it is more difficult to hit exotics, so the take- out should be equal to OR LESS than straight wagers....the tracks ARE hiding behind the larger payouts...its not right when you think about it...we have always just looked the other way, shrug our shoulders and say "oh well, that's just how it is...it is time to change...Ritvo is right, without the customer, we got nothing....AND the customer WANTS only 15% take-out maximum on ALL wagers, regardless of how they are structured....whether or not THEY listen AND implement downward movement in take-out rates remains to be seen.....they know what WE want.....

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

Alton is right...it is more difficult to hit exotics, so the take- out should be equal to OR LESS than straight wagers....the tracks ARE hiding behind the larger payouts...its not right when you think about it...we have always just looked the other way, shrug our shoulders and say "oh well, that's just how it is...it is time to change...Ritvo is right, without the customer, we got nothing....AND the customer WANTS only 15% take-out maximum on ALL wagers, regardless of how they are structured....whether or not THEY listen AND implement downward movement in take-out rates remains to be seen.....they know what WE want.....

Please re-read my post. I disagreed with him regarding horizontals.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Originally Posted by AndyC

Please re-read my post. I disagreed with him regarding horizontals.

I'm ok with what you posted...I was just sort of responding to the topic of the whys and wherefores of higher take-out for exotics...You know, I have never really put much thought into it...but the more I do the less I like being charged more for what is a more difficult bet to hit...

Let's see now..the track offers a win bet say at 15% take...and they are ok with that...but they got this trifecta bet over here that might pay considerably more but is way harder to hit..

...SO THEY CHARGE YOU MORE TO PLAY THAT BET...!!!! What...? What kind of backward logic is that anyway...?

Pay more to take a bigger risk...? I don't get it....I know, nobody is forcing anyone to make any bets...BUT don't be surprised if fewer people buy your product.

So Alton is right...the tracks are hiding behind the largess of the exotics payouts and counting on the bettors to just play along with the higher take-out anyway (since they really can't do anything about it anyway)...hoping to make a bigger score than just WIN or PLACE money....

I hear that few pro bettors nowadays bet WIN primarily....What percentage of the total pool money is straight betting versus exotics...?

[AskinHaskin]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

Alton is right...it is more difficult to hit exotics, so the take- out should be equal to OR LESS than straight wagers....the tracks ARE hiding behind the larger payouts...its not right when you think about it...we have always just looked the other way, shrug our shoulders and say "oh well, that's just how it is...it is time to change...Ritvo is right, without the customer, we got nothing....AND the customer WANTS only 15% take-out maximum on ALL wagers, regardless of how they are structured....whether or not THEY listen AND implement downward movement in take-out rates remains to be seen.....they know what WE want.....

LOL - this is absurd.

98% of the customers don't give a flying f*ck what the takeout is, and those are the ones who have been alienated for decades by fools like Ritvo choreographing his entire customer relations stance to/for 2% of his audience.

Takeout has nothing to do with the decline of racing. Takeout has been an approximate constant for decades, and not the variable required for takeout alone to be any part of the reason for said decline.

Until Ritvo and his ilk direct their marketing back toward the 98% of the customers who have been fully overlooked for decades, North American racetracks will continue to circle the drain as they are in 2017.

Racing has for far too long been giving all of you all of the advantages, and for that it has paid dearly while being run by persons too stupid to understand the reality right before their eyes.

At this point Ritvo is just tailoring his rhetoric to soothe the tiny sliver of the fanbase who gives a f*ck about takeout when instead he should be directing his attention toward the forgotten vast majority.

Now you can sit here wholly lacking objectivity while attempting to somehow justify your own weak positions in this equation, or you can open your eyes to the reality right in front of you - that which you created for yourselves and for everybody else, with Tim Ritvo's assist.


So you and Tim Ritvo owe one another a debt of gratitude. Collectively you probably deserve one another.


You cannot be any part of the solution until you collectively cease to be the majority of the problem which inhibits racing improving its North American image.

The lottery does not have the problems you created. Keno does not have the problems you created. Roulette does not have the problems you created. Slot machines do not have the problems you created. Blackjack does not have the problems you created.

Now how about you people cease creating and representing those problems?

[VigorsTheGrey]

Wow...!
So what are your fresh ideas here to get us all back on track, Askin...?

And just WHO are these 98% of the neglected for decades are you referring to...?

I do think it is important to KNOW just WHO the customer REALLY IS..?

Which customer is Tim Ritvo referring to when he speaks about "Without the customer, we don't have anything"...?

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

...You know, I have never really put much thought into it...but the more I do the less I like being charged more for what is a more difficult bet to hit......

...SO THEY CHARGE YOU MORE TO PLAY THAT BET...!!!! What...? What kind of backward logic is that anyway...?

Pay more to take a bigger risk...? I don't get it....I know, nobody is forcing anyone to make any bets...BUT don't be surprised if fewer people buy your product....

If the take-out is too high why do you and other players make the exotics the most popular bets at the track? Simple. Greed. You want to make a big score. Why lower the take-out when the demand is high?

[Jeff P]

Originally Posted by AskinHaskin

LOL - this is absurd...

You cannot be any part of the solution until you collectively cease to be the majority of the problem which inhibits racing improving its North American image.

The lottery does not have the problems you created. Keno does not have the problems you created. Roulette does not have the problems you created. Slot machines do not have the problems you created. Blackjack does not have the problems you created.

Now how about you people cease creating and representing those problems?

Ok.

Pretend I am a three year old. And then describe the problems (as you put it) that we horseplayers have created.

I'm all ears.



-jp

.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Originally Posted by AndyC

If the take-out is too high why do you and other players make the exotics the most popular bets at the track? Simple. Greed. You want to make a big score. Why lower the take-out when the demand is high?

A perfect and legit question and the one I was waiting for somebody to ask...

GREED ah yes, greed...But the greed spins both ways....The track knows this about the bettor and therefore takes advantage of that all too universal greed....greed begets greed...

The demand can only get HIGHER when the takeout goes lower...because people will see that the payouts are bigger and will want to be in even MORE than they are now....

But it is worth looking at: The track is ok with straight betting at 15%...it DOESN'T say to the bettor "15% for favorites and contenders, but if you bet a 50-1 or 75-1 shot we are going to charge you more for that bet, even though we know that the chances of you cashing on these long shots are slim....THIS IS WHAT they do with exotics....

We are told that the track doesn't really care who wins at what price, because it is parimutuel wagering...the track doesn't care if you cash a $2 WIN ticket for 6 bucks or 80 bucks....they charge you the same for making the bets....

Why should they care that the exotics pay higher...as well....The message I get is that..."because YOU win MORE on these special tickets, WE WANT MORE, from you, just because WE CAN, so you see, it is not the same "parimutuel" as the earlier WIN wagers...it is parimutuel with DOUBLE SKIM, instead of single skim...single skim is not enough because of GREED....so it is not only the bettors who are greedy...in this respect, the track clearly shows that it is taking advantage of a psychological pathos that IT NEED NOT AVAIL ITSELF OF...

It needs to be more of a neutral steward in this regard, it needs to be FAIR with the public's wagering capital in this regard...It is NOT IN THE TRACKS BEST INTEREST TO CAPITALIZE ON THE PUBLIC'S GREED....

[Poindexter]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

A perfect and legit question and the one I was waiting for somebody to ask...

GREED ah yes, greed...But the greed spins both ways....The track knows this about the bettor and therefore takes advantage of that all too universal greed....greed begets greed...

The demand can only get HIGHER when the takeout goes lower...because people will see that the payouts are bigger and will want to be in even MORE than they are now....

But it is worth looking at: The track is ok with straight betting at 15%...it DOESN'T say to the bettor "15% for favorites and contenders, but if you bet a 50-1 or 75-1 shot we are going to charge you more for that bet, even though we know that the chances of you cashing on these long shots are slim....THIS IS WHAT they do with exotics....

We are told that the track doesn't really care who wins at what price, because it is parimutuel wagering...the track doesn't care if you cash a $2 WIN ticket for 6 bucks or 80 bucks....they charge you the same for making the bets....

Why should they care that the exotics pay higher...as well....The message I get is that..."because YOU win MORE on these special tickets, WE WANT MORE, from you, just because WE CAN, so you see, it is not the same "parimutuel" as the earlier WIN wagers...it is parimutuel with DOUBLE SKIM, instead of single skim...single skim is not enough because of GREED....so it is not only the bettors who are greedy...in this respect, the track clearly shows that it is taking advantage of a psychological pathos that IT NEED NOT AVAIL ITSELF OF...

It needs to be more of a neutral steward in this regard, it needs to be FAIR with the public's wagering capital in this regard...It is NOT IN THE TRACKS BEST INTEREST TO CAPITALIZE ON THE PUBLIC'S GREED....

Accordind to your logic a show bet is better than a place bet wihich is better than a win bet which is better than an exacta/double, which is better than a trifecta/pick 3, which is better than a superfecta/pick 4, which is better than a penta/pick 5.

Truth be told, the more betting opitons the better it is for the player. There may be no value in the win pool, but good value in connecting a cold deck tri or even tri box. There could be little value in 4 consecutive races, but the pick 4 somethimes can make