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Old 07-24-2018, 11:16 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by mikesal57 View Post
Yes it is true....

ALSO...

Horses paying over $10 come in at 5%
This has been true for a long time

Mike
I must be in another world.

You're telling me on average, if we run 100 races, 95 of them would be won by horses that pay 4-1 or less?

No freakin' way.
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Old 07-24-2018, 11:17 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikesal57 View Post
Yes it is true....

ALSO...

Horses paying over $10 come in at 5%
This has been true for a long time

Mike
Not even close to being true....
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Old 07-24-2018, 11:19 PM   #18
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The public's top three choices win about 60-65% of the races...can we agree on that?

That leaves about 35-40% of the races won by a horse that isn't one of the public's top three choices...

I would suspect if you're not one of the top three public choices, you're probably going to be paying north of $10.

So how does 35% suddenly become 5%?

Even if I'm off, I'm not THAT off...
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Old 07-24-2018, 11:23 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage View Post
Out of 100 races run every day, you don't think there are around 12 that pay over $20? That doesn't sound farfetched to me...but it's only my gut backing me up.

And how would it be a winning system? You'd be betting every horse going off at 10-1 or higher...
Follow me here:

You bet a hundred 9/1+ horses at $2 each...for a total investment of $200. If 12 of them win at a mutuel of at least $20 each...then you would collect at least $240 from these 12 winners...thus garnering at least a 20% return on your money without any handicapping at ALL. That's why I say that there is no way in hell that the $20 horses win at a 12% clip.
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Old 07-24-2018, 11:24 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Parkview_Pirate View Post
Well, my guess is that with the proper analysis and the right tools, we're seeing changes in the wagering patterns of the whales which may introduce some opportunities for the minnows.

I interpret your data and come to the following conclusion - the whales are being pressured to generate the same profits (or greater) than in the years past. Nobody likes to see profits shrink, and the world is run by bean counters, so this is hardly surprising. The whales have adjusted to this pressure by zeroing in and hammering the most likely winners, and not dutching the wagers as equally in the past. This is my observation this year, as I've seen numerous late moves on the tote for the winning horse being crushed like a red lamper in Hong Kong.

So perhaps the trick would be to find not just the vulnerable favorite, but to find the vulnerable favorite that the whales will hammer but then run out?
You are right on all counts.

The issue about the whales generating profit is correct. (According to my sources) they retool every winter and put it into play towards the end of January.

This year's retooling effort seems to have changed things quite a bit from my POV.
Remember that when the whales agree on who should be bet, they all lose. To be clear about that, when a track has a big day for favorites, all the whales lose money because they're betting more than just those winning favs.

IMHO, because there are so many winners who are showing up as bet downs after the gate opens, the handicapper who EXPECTS to be competitive, needs to address these issues:

1. Which horse(s) are likely to be bet down below what they should be?

2. Which, of the low-odds horses is a true bet against horse?

This may seem like handicapping 101 but it is actually far different than what most players do now.

As I said in one of my earlier posts, the days of just ignoring the favorites (i.e. assuming that all favorites are bad bets) and focusing on the long shots is a definite path to the poor house.

If one considers implementing those two steps I have recommended, one will find that there must be a serious change in their handicapping technique.

Notice that there is no mention of actually handicapping the race from a conventional POV. It is all about those two steps.

Example: If you look at class drops, which of those two issues does it address? Will it point to a horse that will be bet down after the gate opens? Does it point to a low-odds BIG loser (in terms of money returned)?

If it does neither of those, it serves no purpose but to obfuscate the goal.

I've not had a winning year thus far. Since I began working on this approach, based upon extensive paper play, I've become convinced that the approach is sound.

Ironically, my average prices have never been this high because a substantial number of "bet downs" are in the $9 to $18 range, with the occasional monster hit.

As I said, all this is on paper, so I still have to see how it plays out when pulling the trigger live. I don't expect it to be any different because the system is 100% automatic and there is zero use of the tote board.

Another piece of irony is that when I have introduced the actual odds (which, of course, I would never have when playing live) my results were NOT AS GOOD!

I've shared this because I know that there have to be some pretty good handicappers out there that are having a more difficult time than usual this year. Perhaps this will offer you some potential places to look for answers.


So, in my opinion, this is a new way to play.

As for how you actually do this, I will not share that. There is no new product coming, no new videos or book on this topic.

Good luck to all of you.


Dave
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Old 07-24-2018, 11:26 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage View Post
There is no way only 3% of races pay over $20. Are you sure you're reading his post correctly?

Only 3 out of every 100 races pays over $20? No way.

I think you mean 20-1 or higher, correct?

He posted over $20, not 20-1.
20/1. Not $20.

God, I hope I didn't say that. LOL
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Old 07-24-2018, 11:29 PM   #22
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That does not even come close to what my database says.

You say 12% and I say under 3%. How can we be that far apart?

That is mutuels as it says on there....you know...$20 and up




Again..this has nothing to do with how many horses go off at whatever odds...this is just payoffs for each race..........

Last edited by vegasone; 07-24-2018 at 11:36 PM.
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Old 07-24-2018, 11:33 PM   #23
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Boy...am I glad that I don't use computer "programs" in my handicapping.
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Old 07-24-2018, 11:33 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by mikesal57 View Post
My bad...I'm off by 1.5%

stats for 2017 on horses pay $10+....its 6.5%

Code:
     SQL:  SELECT * FROM STARTERHISTORY
           WHERE [DATE] >= #01-01-2017# 
           AND [DATE] <= #12-31-2017#
           AND ODDS >= 4


     Data Summary          Win         Place          Show
     -----------------------------------------------------
     Mutuel Totals   317347.90     315900.30     314352.40
     Bet            -443068.00    -443068.00    -443068.00
     -----------------------------------------------------
     P/L            -125720.10    -127167.70    -128715.60

     Wins                14406         35170         59990
     Plays              221534        221534        221534
     PCT                 .0650         .1588         .2708

     ROI                0.7163        0.7130        0.7095
     Avg Mut             22.03          8.98          5.24
You have the same problem. Your stats are showing 10-1 or higher. Not $10 or higher. Your average mutuel is $22

I knew I wasn't the crazy one.
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Old 07-24-2018, 11:35 PM   #25
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That is mutuels as it says on there....you know...$20 and up
Absurd.
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Old 07-24-2018, 11:39 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by thaskalos View Post
Follow me here:

You bet a hundred 9/1+ horses at $2 each...for a total investment of $200. If 12 of them win at a mutuel of at least $20 each...then you would collect at least $240 from these 12 winners...thus garnering at least a 20% return on your money without any handicapping at ALL. That's why I say that there is no way in hell that the $20 horses win at a 12% clip.
This is REALY simple...this is JUST races paying off at $20 or more.....nothing to do with handicapping or playing whatever.


You would if you only bet the winner And that is races paying more than $20


The reason I specified MUTUELS was to prevent misunderstanding....was easier to get the number for me

Last edited by vegasone; 07-24-2018 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 07-24-2018, 11:47 PM   #27
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You would if you only bet the winner And that is races paying more than $20
How do you guys use these powerful computer programs...when you don't even have the mental acuity to solve a simple math problem?

There is no way in hell that the $20+ horses win at a 12% clip...because if they did...then anyone who confines his wagers to only the horses who go off at odds of 9/1 or higher would receive at least a 20% return on his money, without doing any handicapping at all. And...he wouldn't need to "bet only on the winners". He could get a 20% return by betting on ALL the $20 horses out there. Assuming, of course...that these horses win at a 12% clip. Which they don't.
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Old 07-24-2018, 11:49 PM   #28
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How do you guys use these powerful computer programs...when you don't even have the mental acuity to solve a simple math problem?

There is no way in hell that the $20+ horses win at a 12% clip...because if they did...then anyone who confines his wagers to only the horses who go off at odds of 9/1 or higher would receive at least a 20% return on his money, without doing any handicapping at all. And...he wouldn't need to "bet only on the winners". He could get a 20% return by betting on ALL the $20 horses out there. Assuming, of course...that these horses win at a 12% clip. Which they don't.





This is getting silly.......this is races......NOT horses. I probably could have figured it out in 5th grade... IT says so many races run....so many paid this much....not rocket science


I need to find me some sorta pill

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Old 07-25-2018, 12:02 AM   #29
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This is getting silly.......this is races......NOT horses. I probably could have figured it out in 5th grade... IT says so many races run....so many paid this much....not rocket science


I need to find me some sorta pill
Okay...now I see what you mean. I only saw part of your post...because you added the other part after I read it.
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Old 07-25-2018, 12:09 AM   #30
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Amazing how people see what they want to....there was nothing that I posted that said anything about horses. I could have said trains and everyone would see horses
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