Keeneland's 50 Cent Pick 3

[trying2win]

I was just reading about Keeneland's new 50 cent Pick 3 they will be introducing at their upcoming spring meet:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...eet?source=rss

You have to scroll down the article's page a bit to read the info on this wager. What's your opinion on this 50 cent Pick 3 offering at Keeneland?


T2W

[thaskalos]

Because KEE features full fields, and is, IMO, a track where longshots do a lot better than is considered normal, a 50cent Pick-3 may not be such a bad idea...but I think we are getting into dangerous territory now. If you start reducing the price of even the relatively small-priced exotic wagers, then you run the risk of destroying the payoffs altogether.

Reducing the price of the superfecta bet was one thing - the super payoffs are very large due to the difficulty of the wager - but to do the same to smaller, easier exotics is not a good idea. Retama has 10cent trifectas for heavens sakes!!! It's getting ridiculous. The pick-3, and the trifecta payoffs are too small as they are.

[Leonard]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Because KEE features full fields, and is, IMO, a track where longshots do a lot better than is considered normal, a 50cent Pick-3 may not be such a bad idea...but I think we are getting into dangerous territory now. If you start reducing the price of even the relatively small-priced exotic wagers, then you run the risk of destroying the payoffs altogether.

Reducing the price of the superfecta bet was one thing - the super payoffs are very large due to the difficulty of the wager - but to do the same to smaller, easier exotics is not a good idea. Retama has 10cent trifectas for heavens sakes!!! It's getting ridiculous. The pick-3, and the trifecta payoffs are too small as they are.

It may cut into the bigger pick 3 payouts Keeneland has but it may also bring more money into the Pick 3 pools. Keeneland has enough money floating around, unlike Retama, that any pro's and con's from the experiment will be evident early on in the meet. If the average pick 3 payout goes down then they should discontinue it in the fall. If the average goes up it will be around a while.

I'll probably take a few 50 cent pick 3 flyers for the fun of it this meet -- it's a wager I usually stay away from because I suck at it.

[rrpic6]

Any wager that potentially keeps the IRS in the dark is AWESOME!

RR

[only11]

Originally Posted by trying2win

I was just reading about Keeneland's new 50 cent Pick 3 they will be introducing at their upcoming spring meet:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...eet?source=rss

You have to scroll down the article's page a bit to read the info on this wager. What's your opinion on this 50 cent Pick 3 offering at Keeneland?


T2W

they .50 picks in the fall

[Leonard]

Originally Posted by only11

they .50 picks in the fall

"In addition to its usual attractions, Keeneland is making additional efforts to reach out to fans. Nicholson detailed new initiatives planned for the spring meeting, including a new 50 cent pick three wager and increased social media marketing efforts."

[horses4courses]

How could anyone dislike a lower base unit?

No matter how much you play, having the opportunity to stay under the
"signer" threshold, with multiple 50 cent plays, has to be a good thing.

Some will argue that lowering the minimum spoils the wager.
Let's the little guy in to take a slice out of the pool.
Nonsense.
Handle, imo, will not be adversely effected.

By all means, play your $2 PK-3.
If you want to try to avoid Uncle Sam, though, play a fifty cent ticket four times.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by horses4courses

How could anyone dislike a lower base unit?

No matter how much you play, having the opportunity to stay under the
"signer" threshold, with multiple 50 cent plays, has to be a good thing.

Some will argue that lowering the minimum spoils the wager.
Let's the little guy in to take a slice out of the pool.
Nonsense.
Handle, imo, will not be adversely effected.

By all means, play your $2 PK-3.
If you want to try to avoid Uncle Sam, though, play a fifty cent ticket four times.

I made the same exact argument years ago to support the 10 cent superfecta, but in the pick 3 the argument does not apply. Only a tiny percentage of pick 3s are signers.

What's next? 10 cent trifectas and pick 3s?

[horses4courses]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I made the same exact argument years ago to support the 10 cent superfecta, but in the pick 3 the argument does not apply. Only a tiny percentage of pick 3s are signers.

What's next? 10 cent trifectas and pick 3s?

Why not?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by horses4courses

Why not?

I don't know if you are putting me on or not. If you are serious, I want to ask you a question.

Why do trifectas pay more than perfectas? Because they are more difficult to hit, right? Why are they more difficult to hit? Because most people are reluctant to invest the money it takes to hit them. Do you agree? It takes more combinations to hit a trifecta than it does a perfecta. If the trifecta is reduced to 10 cents instead of $1, the bet will get very easy to hit, because the tiny investment needed will allow all the players to share in the payoff. The trifecta payoffs will drastically decline. Same thing applies to pick 3s.

Your argument about Uncle Sam applies only to high paying wagers like superfectas and pick 4s. Trifectas and pick 3s are still within the reach of the vast majority of the players, and they very rarely pay enough to get the tax man involved. They should be left alone.

If a horseplayer finds $1 trifectas and pick 3s out of his league, let him bet the exactas. If the player loses the value in the exotics, what else is left?

[Bill F]

Originally Posted by horses4courses

By all means, play your $2 PK-3.
If you want to try to avoid Uncle Sam, though, play a fifty cent ticket four times.

This has always been the way that I've played Exotics if I thought that a $2 bet might pay over $600.

I would play $1 tickets on the same Pick 3 or Pick 4 combo multiple times, and used to avoid the taxman whenever the $2 payoff was under $1200.

However, now playing with Youbet, I've hit 3 or 4 such bets within the last year, and received W-2Gs each time. They tax them even though the $1 ticket might pay just over $300.

Just wanted to know if others can say for sure how other ADWs are handling these bets.

I know that I can still punch them out at the track, and cash them with no problem, but like most, I now much prefer playing at home.

Thanks for any insight, Bill

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Bill F

This has always been the way that I've played Exotics if I thought that a $2 bet might pay over $600.

I would play $1 tickets on the same Pick 3 or Pick 4 combo multiple times, and used to avoid the taxman whenever the $2 payoff was under $1200.

However, now playing with Youbet, I've hit 3 or 4 such bets within the last year, and received W-2Gs each time. They tax them even though the $1 ticket might pay just over $300.

Just wanted to know if others can say for sure how other ADWs are handling these bets.

I know that I can still punch them out at the track, and cash them with no problem, but like most, I now much prefer playing at home.

Thanks for any insight, Bill

They tax you if the payoff is over 300-1 and the amount exceeds $600. If the payoff is less than 600-1, and you have it for $1 they don't tax you.

[Bill F]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

They tax you if the payoff is over 300-1 and the amount exceeds $600. If the payoff is 500-1, and you have it for $1 they don't tax you.

True if you have the 500-1 payoff for just $1.

Not true with Youbet if you play two $1 tickets with that 500-1 payoff....That was not always the case.

Are there ADWs that don't tax you with that play?

[jonnielu]

Originally Posted by trying2win

I was just reading about Keeneland's new 50 cent Pick 3 they will be introducing at their upcoming spring meet:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...eet?source=rss

You have to scroll down the article's page a bit to read the info on this wager. What's your opinion on this 50 cent Pick 3 offering at Keeneland?


T2W

It is a good deal for bettors because it allows you to put more horses into the P3 which could cause more people winning. The P3 is wide open at KEE and the exclusive viewpoint of handicapping is the best way to lose it. More people winning is the answer to handle woes, the P3 at KEE is a great bet, but less then 3 horses per race on the ticket is just throwing out money, no matter the increment.

At .50, if you think about the horse more then 1 second you can throw it in, every race at KEE has 5 - 6 legitimate contenders in it.

jdl

[horses4courses]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I don't know if you are putting me on or not. If you are serious, I want to ask you a question.

Why do trifectas pay more than perfectas? Because they are more difficult to hit, right? Why are they more difficult to hit? Because most people are reluctant to invest the money it takes to hit them. Do you agree? It takes more combinations to hit a trifecta than it does a perfecta. If the trifecta is reduced to 10 cents instead of $1, the bet will get very easy to hit, because the tiny investment needed will allow all the players to share in the payoff. The trifecta payoffs will drastically decline. Same thing applies to pick 3s.

Your argument about Uncle Sam applies only to high paying wagers like superfectas and pick 4s. Trifectas and pick 3s are still within the reach of the vast majority of the players, and they very rarely pay enough to get the tax man involved. They should be left alone.

If a horseplayer finds $1 trifectas and pick 3s out of his league, let him bet the exactas. If the player loses the value in the exotics, what else is left?

Having been in bookmaking (legal) for over 20 years, I'm well aware of varying combinations and permutations concerning exotic wagers.

I understand, also, your point about the smaller increments upsetting the traditional $2 (or higher) exotic player who resents the fact that a 10 cent player can scoop an entire pool through his ability to cover far more combinations.

It's true, the dynamics of playing into a pool with smaller base increments are dramatically altered. Covering assorted longshots, that would not otherwise be played, is a calculated risk. It is no "get rich quick" scheme, believe me.
At the end of the day, the best handicappers will get the money, regardless of the minimum wagering increment.

With a smaller base increment for Pick 3s and trifectas, I believe that handle in those pools, would increase to a small degree, at least initially.
There are only so many disposable dollars out there when in comes to betting into pari-mutuel pools. A dramatic rise in handle would be very unlikely.

That being said, any rise in handle is a positive. The only minimum, imo, that should be enforced is a per ticket amount (say $1 total).

WPS increments of $2 need no alteration.
Exotics need a closer look, though, and smaller minimum increments would do little to hurt handle. It would just rub some traditionalists the wrong way.