Special counsel Robert Mueller

[Tom]

So it is ok to see all of Mueller's report but keep anything on Hillary secret?
Transparency.......for everyone.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by Tom

So it is ok to see all of Mueller's report but keep anything on Hillary secret?
Transparency.......for everyone.

I just listed the investigations into Hillary.

Trump can release those now... hell... he can take photos of them and tweet the pictures if he'd like...

We have the results and the findings of several. They are available for people who actually look into this stuff and want to know what's going on instead of being told.

Stahp with the bs...

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

I disagree with this wholeheartedly...

We aren't engaging in this activity to increase nationalism we are engaging in it to increase peace.

I used to believe this, but I don't anymore.

We are engaging in this kind of behavior for economic benefit (typically oil, but often other business opportunities) or to prevent a rival country from gaining economic or strategic military advantage because we want to have the primary position in the world and impose our will on everyone else.

Granted, that's not true of all politicians or even the majority of Americans. But the people behind the scenes pulling the strings that have had the power in recent decades are arrogant imperialist dogs. I'd go as far as to say they are NOT simply misguided. They are intrinsically evil human beings.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

I just listed the investigations into Hillary.

Trump can release those now... hell... he can take photos of them and tweet the pictures if he'd like...

We have the results and the findings of several. They are available for people who actually look into this stuff and want to know what's going on instead of being told.

Stahp with the bs...

Here's the problem.

At this point, everyone knows that much of the power structure in Washington and especially in the intelligence community has been anti-Trump. First they tried to defeat him and then they engaged in a soft coup to get him out of office. These people were loyal to Obama and Hillary. So any investigation was a ruse and all the crimes were covered up or set aside.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

I disagree with this wholeheartedly...

We aren't engaging in this activity to increase nationalism we are engaging in it to increase peace.

When we "manipulated" the events of 9/11 so we could justify attacking and destroying a country that had nothing to do with that tragedy...what sort of "peace" were we after? Would we still attack the Iraqis if they mainly exported PISTACHIO NUTS instead of oil?

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

When we "manipulated" the events of 9/11 so we could justify attacking and destroying a country that had nothing to do with that tragedy...what sort of "peace" were we after? Would we still attack the Iraqis if they mainly exported PISTACHIO NUTS instead of oil?

No.

They export the most important resource human civilization needs to function.

It's that simple.

They were also a totalitarian state that had previous attacked/invaded two neighbors to control said resource. Finally as a result of the browbeating they took they failed to comply with inspections put in place via the Armistice agreement they signed.

Sure we can say there weren't any WMDs after the fact but prior the Saddam regime to could have a done a helluva of a lot more to assure us of that. They chose not to due to security concerns they had (see Iran) finding out they actually did lack a biochem deterrent.

I'm also ignoring CH's "the powers that be behind the scenes" conspiracy nonsense from both posts...

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

No.

They export the most important resource human society needs to function.

It's that simple.

They were also a totalitarian state that had previous attacked/invaded two neighbors to control said resource. Finally as a result of the browbeating they took they failed to comply with inspections put in place via the Armistice agreement they signed.

Sure we can say there weren't any WMDs after the fact but prior the Saddam regime to could have a done a helluva of a lot more to assure us of that. They chose not to due to security concerns they had (see Iran) finding out they actually did lack a biochem deterrent.

I'm also ignoring CH's "the powers that be behind the scenes" conspiracy nonsense from both posts...

You once told me that you know more about politics than Noam Chomsky...so, I shouldn't have to tell you about the times that our own country has failed to comply with world agreements that we have signed. Nor should I have to remind you about how instrumental our own country had been in the political ascent of that "monster" Saddam Hussein.

We build up the monsters so they could do our bidding, my friend, and then we tear the monsters down when they outlive their usefulness to us...and we shrug our shoulders at the "collateral damage". And...we don't do it in order to keep or restore the "peace"; we do it so we can solidify our position at the top of the ladder. And we get away with it because our "nationalism" allows us to pound our chest and say, as you've done..."Hey...we are goddamn Americans...and we should be able to manipulate anything in order to get a better outcome for ourselves". Of course...when some OTHER country says that, then we get busy telling them how wrong they are. And, if they don't listen...then we SHOW them.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

I'm also ignoring CH's "the powers that be behind the scenes" conspiracy nonsense from both posts...

Then you are ignoring reality.

This how it works.

Rich businessmen and Wall St. fund the political parties and help get specific politicians elected so they will do their bidding.

The intelligence community knows everyone's dirt and corruption and selectively pressures or prosecutes whoever they want depending on loyalties and who put them into power.

Media moguls help form public opinion with lies and spin to advance their own political agendas and the agendas of the political party or intelligence organization they are aligned with.

The government then just does their bidding.

Within that, there are rich people with different priorities and goals in the same way there are people here with different priorities and goals. But they aren't doing all this stuff for you and me or to make a better America. They are doing it to enrich themselves and to have more power over us. Really, they are mostly bad people selling us a pipe dream about America being a wonderful place always doing the right thing. The American people in a general sense are good, but so are Russians, Chinese, Venezuelans etc... It's the government and people pulling the strings that suck.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

You once told me that you know more about politics than Noam Chomsky...so, I shouldn't have to tell you about the times that our own country has failed to comply with world agreements that we have signed. Nor should I have to remind you about how instrumental our own country had been in the political ascent of that "monster" Saddam Hussein.

To the first part yes... Chomsky is a hack... however how many international agreements do you see me supporting our withdrawal from? My opinions on stuff you can read on lovely PA/OT....

INF - Nope
Iran Deal - Nope
Paris Accord - Nope
ABM Treaty- Nope
NAFTA - Nope
TPP - Nope

Originally Posted by thaskalos

We build up the monsters so they could do our bidding, my friend, and then we tear the monsters down when they outlive their usefulness to us...and we shrug our shoulders at the "collateral damage". And...we don't do it in order to keep or restore the "peace"; we do it so we can solidify our position at the top of the ladder. And we get away with it because our "nationalism" allows us to pound our chest and say, as you've done..."Hey...we are goddamn Americans...and we should be able to manipulate anything in order to get a better outcome for ourselves". Of course...when some OTHER country says that, then we get busy telling them how wrong they are. And, if they don't listen...then we SHOW them.

We don't do all of these things out of sheer nationalism... we do them out of fear...

The world has been a really peaceful place the last 70 years or so as America plays the role of hegemon. There are winners and there are losers in this game though. Just like racing you don't always back the right horses.

The past 70 years or so though has shown that a better outcome for us tends to be a better outcome for the global community as well. Don't believe me on the role of American power and global prosperity see the image below.

I'm "A Okay" with the role my team has to play in the game and I'm not welcoming of challengers... a prince once said "ends justify means" or some such...

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

We don't do all of these things out of sheer nationalism... we do them out of fear...

Let's see: We are unquestionably the only remaining superpower in the world...but we commit our aggressive acts "out of fear". Hmmm...let me ponder the logic and the implications of this statement...and I'll get back to you. In the meantime...did you know that, prior to the Pearl Harbor attack...our government's intention was to sit on the sidelines and, once we determined which side was prevailing in WW II, to start supporting the OTHER side...so we could prolong the war as much as we possibly could...in order to garner a "better outcome for ourselves"? Declassified documents have shown that...for those who care enough to know.

It isn't a pretty world out there, Ely...

[fast4522]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Does this have anything to do with what I wrote? Why isn't there a documentary of the CIA removal of the democratically elected Chilean President Salvador Allende...so they could institute the murderous Augusto Pinochet as President of a junta government which then proceeded to murder and torture tens of thousands of people?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet

Could it be that this documentary wasn't made because it wouldn't prove to be so "enjoyable" for us?

Salvador Allende was a Marxist, and is why the CIA went after him. Che Guevara another Marxist.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by fast4522

Salvador Allende was a Marxist, and is why the CIA went after him. Che Guevara another Marxist.

Gee...are you suggesting that the CIA should give approval to another country's presidential candidates before they get put onto an election ballot? Do you suppose that the American people give a rat's ass about what the other countries think of OUR president? Oh, sorry...I forgot. WE are "special".

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by fast4522

Salvador Allende was a Marxist, and is why the CIA went after him. Che Guevara another Marxist.

Ely...do you find anything wrong with comments like the above?

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

It isn't a pretty world out there, Ely...

Agree 1000%.

Why do you think I advocate for a forwardly placed, simple, internationalist, and confrontational foreign policy?

I fully understand how the world works. The prevailing two trains of foreign policy thought these days appears to be either pretend it isn't so or run from it.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Ely...do you find anything wrong with comments like the above?

Yes.

It's factually incorrect.

If you haven't noticed yet I'm not a ideologue... probably why I'm so disliked here.

I know you don't disagree with my original point so I think we're just sniping around the edges. I hold no illusions why our country does what it does and that sometimes the results are pretty damn bad... most of the time they aren't though... we're still here and the past 70 years has been some of the most peaceful in modern history. I also understand why other countries do what they do (Russia for instance) but it doesn't mean I'm willing to tolerate it.