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Old 12-09-2017, 10:20 PM   #31
highnote
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How does someone explain to his daughters what happened and why?

This is one of the most tragic stories in recent memory that I've come across.
The tragedy is that it was preventable.

Had the cop given consistent instructions it might not have escalated.

Had the victim not been drinking and handling a gun there might not have been a problem.

Note to self: booze and guns don't mix -- especially in a hotel room with open curtains.
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Old 12-09-2017, 10:48 PM   #32
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I kept thinking that another cop was going to step-up and take over it was clear that nothing this poor guy did was enough . He was not a threat.

He was in a deadly game of "Simon Says".

There are thousands of cops can they all make-up their own rules as to what a suspect is suppose to do when confronted?

No matter what, laying flat with hands behind your head and legs crossed left over right not right over left is enough . Not to mention hands raised earlier.

A complete waste of life an innocent father and husband.
Judge,

I saw pretty much what you did.

I am very pro-cop and I recognize what a difficult and dangerous job it is. Even more so in inner cities.

However, I am hard-pressed to find justification of this one.

My wife used the Simon Sez metaphor as you did we she watched this.

Today, I sent this to one of my retired cop-friends. (We have breakfast together about once a month.) I asked him what he saw. His response was, "There must be more to the story."

My question was, "What can we be missing?"

I held my friend (the cop) accountable for his attitude. I asked, "Are you saying that there is ALWAYS more to the story because a police officer "just wouldn't do anything like that?"

He admitted that there are "bad cops." My problem is that the knee-jerk reaction from police is that "there MUST be more to the story."

The public has a tendency to knee-jerk in the other direction: "The bad cops killed another innocent person."

While that is bad, this is worse.

Look, I get it. There is a brotherhood and that brotherhood has to exist for these guys to survive on the job. However, if the police will not hold themselves to a higher standard, we need a police force to monitor the police.

Remember, I am BIG supporter of police. I was once on the wrong end of an altercation with police involvement. It took me a long time to get past the fact that anyone can be on the wrong side.

Just my opinion.

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Old 12-09-2017, 11:06 PM   #33
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Look, I get it. There is a brotherhood and that brotherhood has to exist for these guys to survive on the job. However, if the police will not hold themselves to a higher standard, we need a police force to monitor the police.
We had an attorney from HR give a talk to our crew yesterday about harassment in the workplace.

He made a good point that anytime there is a predominately homogenous workforce certain types of behavior and attitudes are going to be institutionalized. This applies to the priesthood as well as a police force or the military.

The way to battle this is to have more diversity in the workplace because this forces checks and balances.

I'm not saying diversity is the only or best solution, but I have to agree with him that when you put all of the same type of people in one place and have them work together for years a culture will form that with attitudes and behaviors that may not always be appropriate outside of that culture.

Protectionism is one manifestation. A code-of-silence is another.

There might even be peer pressure to withhold the truth or to not rock the boat.
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Old 12-09-2017, 11:22 PM   #34
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Protectionism is one manifestation. A code-of-silence is another.

There might even be peer pressure to withhold the truth or to not rock the boat.
That is a great attitude.

Again, I get the brotherhood but "truth" must be the standard to strive for.
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Old 12-09-2017, 11:28 PM   #35
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The more to the story is the reason the cops were there was because someone was seen pointing a gun out a window at the hotel. The dead man was drunk/high and suspected to be the person with the gun.

Having said that, with 2 cops and the guy on the ground, one could have easily cuffed him.
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Old 12-10-2017, 08:48 AM   #36
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The shooting was very disturbing. Also disturbing was the way the cop stepped over the victim like the dead guy was just an animal. The victim's wife had to be in shock. Callous.

I once got hit by an out of control car on the parkway while driving on my way home from work. It was nearly blizzard conditions. I came to a stop and called 911. No one was hurt. The highway patrolman arrived and got out of his car and walked up to my car. It was extremely dangerous because a couple of other cars had spun out and nearly hit me again.

I said to the cop I would have gotten out of my car and walked back to check on the car that hit me but it seemed too dangerous. He said he's used to it and that you have to have nerves of steel.

Having nerves of steel should be a prerequisite for being a cop. If you don't have them you're probably in the wrong profession. You're going to get killed or kill someone.
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Old 12-10-2017, 09:31 AM   #37
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The shooting was very disturbing. Also disturbing was the way the cop stepped over the victim like the dead guy was just an animal. The victim's wife had to be in shock. Callous.

I once got hit by an out of control car on the parkway while driving on my way home from work. It was nearly blizzard conditions. I came to a stop and called 911. No one was hurt. The highway patrolman arrived and got out of his car and walked up to my car. It was extremely dangerous because a couple of other cars had spun out and nearly hit me again.

I said to the cop I would have gotten out of my car and walked back to check on the car that hit me but it seemed too dangerous. He said he's used to it and that you have to have nerves of steel.

Having nerves of steel should be a prerequisite for being a cop. If you don't have them you're probably in the wrong profession. You're going to get killed or kill someone.
So a cop on an interstate in inclimate weather is compared to a cop arriving on a scene where there has been said to be guns and a shooter???
And this is how "nerves of steel are determined'???

I can imagine you have never had hot lead flying over your head or at you.
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Old 12-10-2017, 09:48 AM   #38
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It's pretty amazing that the people here never agree on anything. And that's fine. Finally when we do a jury rules the other way. Only in America.
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Old 12-10-2017, 02:53 PM   #39
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Here's some more background.

https://www.redstate.com/patterico/2...t-perspective/
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Old 12-10-2017, 03:10 PM   #40
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c'mon man...
I'm not sure what you are complaining about. I trashed the way the cops handled it.

How are you supposed have your hands in the air, your legs crossed, and crawl at the same time?

However, if you actually watch the video carefully you'll see what I was talking about.

People often keep guns in their pants in the back. It keeps the gun less visible. So if you reach behind during an encounter with a cop, his first instinct will be that you may be reaching for a gun. That's exactly why the cop screamed at the kid when he put both of his hands behind his back. The kid thought he was doing a submissive thing, but he was actually doing a provocative thing. A hyperactive cop could have conceivably made a mistake and shot him right there. That's why the cop told him if you do that again we are going to shoot you.

Also, the article I posted above give more context.

The shooter was not the one barking the orders. The sergeant was barking orders and they were responding to a call about someone with a gun.

None of that is an excuse for a badly handled situation. It's an explanation.
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Old 12-10-2017, 03:48 PM   #41
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How many armed-to-the-teeth cops does it take to apprehend an unarmed man who is on his knees and pleading for his life...without having to kill him first?
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Old 12-10-2017, 04:15 PM   #42
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Old 12-10-2017, 04:49 PM   #43
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At a family Christmas party last night, I discussed this shooting with two family members...who happen to be Chicago cops. Both felt that this fatal shooting was JUSTIFIED! Upon further prodding, I discovered that:

1.) No matter what...the police officer's commands must be followed to the letter, no matter how "illogical" they may sound.

2.) Even when the suspect is scared to death because several cops are shouting threats and menacingly pointing their weapons at him, he should never make even the slightest "false move"...no matter how frightened he is. Any "false move" can get you shot.

3.) NO...it isn't enough for the suspect to remain face-down with his fingers interlocked behind his head. If the "peace officer" orders him to crawl forward while keeping his legs crossed...he is obligated to follow the officer's orders.

Those are the rules...like them or not.
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Old 12-10-2017, 04:56 PM   #44
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I refuse to watch this video. As I've gotten older, watching people die is just something I won't willingly do...call me a pussy.

With that said, being a cop, especially in a major metropolitan area, has to be one of the most nerve-wracking jobs ever created. On an almost daily FREAKIN' BASIS, you literally aren't sure if you're going to come home to your wife and kids at night. Imagine living like that.

I know, I know...tell them to get another job. But let's live in reality instead of fantasy land for at least a moment.

Not defending what happened here, but let me just say it's surprising that something like this doesn't happen more often.

I like to think most cops (and by most, I mean 98+%) are doing the best they can given the circumstances.
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Old 12-10-2017, 05:07 PM   #45
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That was terrible.

This cop seemed to be looking for a reason to blow this kid away. I have no training, but everything about the way this was handled seemed wrong.

The thing that probably got the cop off was the kid reaching behind his back the first time. It provoked a serious reaction from the cop. A cop will not know why you are reaching behind you. Many people keep guns in their pants behind them. So he could have easily been reaching for a gun. That's why he was screaming at the kid to not reach behind again or he'd shoot him.

The kid did not realize the significance of why he should reach behind himself and seemed to be making a move in that direction again when the cop shot him. Tragic.
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c'mon man...

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I'm not sure what you are complaining about. I trashed the way the cops handled it.

How are you supposed have your hands in the air, your legs crossed, and crawl at the same time?

However, if you actually watch the video carefully you'll see what I was talking about.

People often keep guns in their pants in the back. It keeps the gun less visible. So if you reach behind during an encounter with a cop, his first instinct will be that you may be reaching for a gun. That's exactly why the cop screamed at the kid when he put both of his hands behind his back. The kid thought he was doing a submissive thing, but he was actually doing a provocative thing. A hyperactive cop could have conceivably made a mistake and shot him right there. That's why the cop told him if you do that again we are going to shoot you.

Also, the article I posted above give more context.

The shooter was not the one barking the orders. The sergeant was barking orders and they were responding to a call about someone with a gun.

None of that is an excuse for a badly handled situation. It's an explanation.
We can all see the video where he reaches his arm towards his back. And we all realize that the guy who got executed was an idiot who minutes earlier was brandishing a gun.

You did more crawling around in these posts than the guy who was executed.

Liberal or Conservative, whether you happen to be pro Law Enforcement or a social justice warrior, all sides benefit from improving police-citizen interaction. Competency and accountability must exist at some level.

Your posts here scream 'confirmation bias'.
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