Special counsel Robert Mueller

[fast4522]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

How do you feel when you see our CIA assisting in overthrowing democratically elected governments of other countries...so murderous dictators could then be instituted in their place who can then bring about a "better outcome for us"?

You would love to see the documentary of how the CIA hunted and got Che Guevara. I watched it the other evening and really enjoyed it.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

How do you feel when you see our CIA assisting in overthrowing democratically elected governments of other countries...so murderous dictators could then be instituted in their place who can then bring about a "better outcome for us"?

Some go well and some don't.

We don't typically go in with the intention of installing "murderous dictators."

Preserving the status quo of the global power structure has been our aim since 1945.

I'm fine with it just as much as if I was Russian I would be happy with recent Kremlin efforts to weaken it.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by fast4522

You would love to see the documentary of how the CIA hunted and got Che Guevara. I watched it the other evening and really enjoyed it.

Does this have anything to do with what I wrote? Why isn't there a documentary of the CIA removal of the democratically elected Chilean President Salvador Allende...so they could institute the murderous Augusto Pinochet as President of a junta government which then proceeded to murder and torture tens of thousands of people?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet

Could it be that this documentary wasn't made because it wouldn't prove to be so "enjoyable" for us?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

Some go well and some don't.

We don't typically go in with the intention of installing "murderous dictators."

Preserving the status quo of the global power structure has been our aim since 1945.

I'm fine with it just as much as if I was Russian I would be happy with recent Kremlin efforts to weaken it.

Oh...we don't "typically" DO that! So...when we do that ATYPICALLY, what THEN? Do we just shrug our shoulders and say..."Oh, Well...these things happen"...and then go back to our role as "world peacekeeper"?

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Oh...we don't "typically" DO that! So...when we do that ATYPICALLY, what THEN? Do we just shrug our shoulders and say..."Oh, Well...these things happen"...and then go back to our role as "world peacekeeper"?

That was sarcasm apologies if that was misunderstood.

Our goals are normally concentrated around maintaining the current status quo and promoting regional stability.

Chile, your example, is not different and led to unfortunate outcomes but to pretend they were the plan all along is false.

Chile was going to fail regardless of American intervention... Allende's own party abandoned him.

We can talk Central and South American politics all day long and we have tons of blood on our hands and to this day are largely responsible for problems like the caravans and such.

But each case needs to be unpacked on it's own merits and Chile is one of those as well.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

That was sarcasm apologies if that was misunderstood.

Our goals are normally concentrated around maintaining the current status quo and promoting regional stability.

Chile, your example, is not different and led to unfortunate outcomes but to pretend they were the plan all along is false.

Chile was going to fail regardless of American intervention... Allende's own party abandoned him.

We can talk Central and South American politics all day long and we have tons of blood on our hands and to this day are largely responsible for problems like the caravans and such.

But each case needs to be unpacked on it's own merits and Chile is one of those as well.

Here is the point that I need to make. When you say that you are an AMERICAN...and as such you support any "manipulating" that our government resorts to in order to gain a 'better outcome for ourselves'...then you engage in the sort of destructive nationalism that is responsible for most of the hostility that the world's nations harbor for one-another. These are the flames of hatred that the world's governments fan in order to generate real but misguided hatred among their citizens, for countries about whom their citizens know nothing but what their deceiving governments WANT them to know. Don't misunderstand me here...ALL the governments engage in this shameful practice, and there is nothing that the citizens can do to put an end to these political games. But, IMO, the citizens shouldn't lend legitimacy to these cruel political schemes by supporting them and trivializing their side-effects. We should instead be EMBARRASSED by them.

[davew]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

How do you feel when you see our CIA assisting in overthrowing democratically elected governments of other countries...so murderous dictators could then be instituted in their place who can then bring about a "better outcome for us"?

and don't forget about the (politically donating) big corporations going in and harvesting assets for themselves in these places with 'safer' leadership.



I don't like it. The CIA had become the biggest terrorist organization in the world.

[woodtoo]

Originally Posted by davew

and don't forget about the (politically donating) big corporations going in and harvesting assets for themselves in these places with 'safer' leadership.



I don't like it. The CIA had become the biggest terrorist organization in the world.

When the 'Big Ugly' is finally released you can bet the CIA will play a central part. ( John O. Brennan)

[biggestal99]

Originally Posted by chadk66

it amazes me there are still liberals clinging to the scant hope there is something in this to nail the president . I guess it was their last ditch hope

I want to see the report.



Intellectual curiosity.



Lets see who they talked to and what went down.


no collusion?


and no provable obstruction of justice?


Lets see the report and everyone can make up their own minds.


I have an open mind. do you?


Allan

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Here is the point that I need to make. When you say that you are an AMERICAN...and as such you support any "manipulating" that our government resorts to in order to gain a 'better outcome for ourselves'...then you engage in the sort of destructive nationalism that is responsible for most of the hostility that the world's nations harbor for one-another. These are the flames of hatred that the world's governments fan in order to generate real but misguided hatred among their citizens, for countries about whom their citizens know nothing but what their deceiving governments WANT them to know. Don't misunderstand me here...ALL the governments engage in this shameful practice, and there is nothing that the citizens can do to put an end to these political games. But, IMO, the citizens shouldn't lend legitimacy to these cruel political schemes by supporting them and trivializing their side-effects. We should instead be EMBARRASSED by them.

I disagree with this wholeheartedly...

We aren't engaging in this activity to increase nationalism we are engaging in it to increase peace.

I'm a major proponent of Global Hegemonic Stability and the Hegemon needs to act like a Hegemon. Its the main reason for the long periods of peace post Napoleon and post-WWII.

I state that I'm a American and that's why I'm okay with America doing American things to preserve said peace. I'm not okay with Russia attempting to weaken American institutions and the American government... the "Oh hey we do it too" excuse doesn't fly with me. Those people should be ****ing pissed.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by davew

I don't like it. The CIA had become the biggest terrorist organization in the world.

See Thask...

Take a look at posts like these and posts about the FBI on here...

This is kinda the point and goal of stuff like Russian interference.

FBI/CIA = Bad
Russia = Good or at the very least "fake" boogeyman.

[davew]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

Yes.

I'm a goddamn American... I want us manipulating whatever the hell we can for better outcomes for us.

Not Russia manipulating us for better outcomes for themselves.

Seriously this is the dumbest ****ing argument I've seen several posters make on here.

so you are in favor of Brennan's CIA with help of UK and Australia manipulating and then try to overthrow the last US presidential election?

it would have made a better result for 0bama followers...

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by davew

so you are in favor of Brennan's CIA with help of UK and Australia manipulating and then try to overthrow the last US presidential election?

it would have made a better result for 0bama followers...

Changing the subject are we...?

[Tom]

Originally Posted by biggestal99

I want to see the report.



Intellectual curiosity.



Lets see who they talked to and what went down.


no collusion?


and no provable obstruction of justice?


Lets see the report and everyone can make up their own minds.


I have an open mind. do you?


Allan

How about we have them release everything on the alleged investigation of Hillary that Comey said nothing there. Is your mind open to that one too?

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by Tom

How about we have them release everything on the alleged investigation of Hillary that Comey said nothing there. Is your mind open to that one too?

Which report would you like?

There has been a bunch of them... Comey, Huber, Horowitz, House Intel, House Oversight, Senate Intel, Senate Oversight...?

This is that equivalency stuff that doesn't make any sense... there have been several reports all of which reached very similar conclusions.

Investigate her again for all I care... has no bearing on the current discussion of being able to see this one.

More misdirection... remember when Trump wanted the whole thing released... like 5 days ago... and his comments yesterday where he didn't?