Trump signs tariffs

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by reckless

You accuse me of deflection -- ha ha ha. Thats a sign of someone who has lost the argument ... which we all know you have. You are now on top of the stupid list as far as I am concerned.

Personal insults and unproven claims are all you have.

Never forget, for we wont, annual trade deficits since the 1970s, compressing wages for an equal amount of time, the trillions of US wealth transferred overseas, and more, has resulted thanks to the so called free trade policy you promote

You have provided nothing to show that deficits harm the economy, that free trade in and of itself hurts wages, or that "trillions of US wealth transferred overseas".

The last is clearly wrong because the US has for sometime now been running a record high capital surplus equal to the trade deficit. You and Trump harp on the trade deficit, but never mention the corresponding capital surplus. Do you even know what that is?

[fast4522]

Originally Posted by Clocker

Why? The bill was passed in a few months and implemented in a few years.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.6b07ff4ecf56

I think the whole dynamic changed when they removed the individual mandate, basically the ACA is unconstitutional because it is no longer a tax. If someone was paying $700 a month it will become ten times that. I don't see it being a product in 2019. So new product has to fill the void, much is happening even though we are not hearing much. Several States have filed lawsuits specifically for unconstitutionally grounds, that is a slam dunk. New things from this administration with the effort in drug policy in prescriptions and competition across state lines etc. But it might not heat up till November.

And this is the wrong thread, expect those in the fall.

[reckless]

Originally Posted by Clocker

Personal insults and unproven claims are all you have.

You have provided nothing to show that deficits harm the economy, that free trade in and of itself hurts wages, or that "trillions of US wealth transferred overseas".

The last is clearly wrong because the US has for sometime now been running a record high capital surplus equal to the trade deficit. You and Trump harp on the trade deficit, but never mention the corresponding capital surplus. Do you even know what that is?

Unproven claims is all I have ?

So, you need proof that since the late 1970s when unfettered 'free' trade policies were set in place that we've lost millions of manufacturing jobs, proof that tens of thousands of plants have closed, proof that our transfer of wealth in the trillions have happened. You don't BELIEVE all this? Jesus H. Christ. You need proof? I cannot believe YOU.

So the $375 billion annual trade deficit w/China and the trillions in toto with other countries is not proof enough that your idea of 'free' trade is a farce? Gimme a break.

We also have huge trade deficits with both Mexico and Canada, totalling about $90 billion. Yet with all these unfavorable, one-sided and corrupt trade deals with these 'allies' of ours, Canada is still in recession and Mexico is still a third world nation. No wonder they don't want NAFTA renegotiated.

YET baby boy Trudeau takes advice from Obama no less on how to handle Trump.

This is the same Obama who said the 'new normal' in the US economy is low/no growth. Less than 2% GDP over eight years. He also said Trump will never bring back manufacturing jobs ever again -- you and the other genius basically said the same -- often wrong, never in doubt. So, true, so true.

Yet just the other day it was announced that 259,000 new manufacturing were created, and the unemployment rate is the lowest in decades, plus the participation rate is the highest in ages too. And we'll consistently be over 4% annually in no time, and for years to come. Go to the bank on this.

Wow, that Trump is something else, isn't he? Oh yeah, you were the one that constantly told us --starting in 2015, no less-- that Trump was a dope on business and economic matters, weren't you?

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Clocker

You have provided nothing to show that deficits harm the economy, that free trade in and of itself hurts wages, or that "trillions of US wealth transferred overseas".

The last is clearly wrong because the US has for sometime now been running a record high capital surplus equal to the trade deficit. You and Trump harp on the trade deficit, but never mention the corresponding capital surplus. Do you even know what that is?

If I buy a car from Japan, in "X" number of years the value of that car will depreciate to zero.

If the dollars I used to buy that car from Japan get invested in US bonds (or other assets via the capital surplus), in the same "X" number of years, that Japanese holder will be wealthier. The interest payments making him wealthier are coming from taxpayers to buy even more bonds or assets instead of going to US investors.

Countries that are running a trade surplus will slowly get richer faster than they otherwise would have.

Countries that are running a trade deficit will not get wealthy as fast as they would have if their trade was balanced.

If the imbalance gets too huge over time, it's likely the debtor currency will eventually be depreciated if not collapse.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by reckless

Unproven claims is all I have ?

Our country has been in a coma for several decades.

The "theory" is fine. That's why so many people (including me) fell for it. The part everyone missed is that in order for it to work well, incomes, benefits, regulations, taxes, and other factors have to be similar and the deals have to be fair. If they aren't, one country will have an advantage and gain jobs and standards of living at the expense of the other until balance is achieved many years later. In our case, standards of living in some 3rd world countries advanced at the expense of US workers and tax payers (since much of the wealth gets invested in treasuries).

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

Countries that are running a trade deficit will not get wealthy as fast as they would have if their trade was balanced.

Not true. As the dollars are invested back in this country, they create jobs and stimulate the economy.

The dispiriting thing about hearing American politicians complain about trade deficits is the fact that the United States enjoyed its greatest economic growth levels in recent years in the 1980s and 1990, at a time when the country recorded its highest trade deficits. Some of its worst years for economic growth occurred in the 1970s, when the country recorded a couple of years of trade surpluses.

From "Think That Trade Deficits are Bad? Think Again" at RealClearMarkets:


https://www.realclearmarkets.com/art...in_102659.html

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Clocker

Not true. As the dollars are invested back in this country, they create jobs and stimulate the economy.



From "Think That Trade Deficits are Bad? Think Again" at RealClearMarkets:


https://www.realclearmarkets.com/art...in_102659.html

This is the typical mainstream nonsense that got us into this mess.

US dollars primarily go into treasuries and other liquid investments. To the extent they go into direct business investment in the US they will create US jobs, but the bottom line is that the OWNERS of all those assets are not AMERICANS. It's foreigners that are getting richer at our expense. If US businesses were making those sales instead, they'd be making the same investments (creating jobs here) and Americans would be getting richer.

I'll offer this deal to you all you want.

I'll manufacture something you need and you buy it from me. I'll take the dollars you give me and buy a percentage of your house each year. After "X" years when I own your house, you let me know if you still like that deal. If you do, we'll take an inventory of your other assets and I'll start buying those. At the end of this little experiment, let me know which of us got richer.

The most balanced stuff written on this subject was written by Warren Buffett. He likens trade deficits to slowly selling off the family farm. If I can find the articles he's written. I'll post them. I don't necessarily agree with his solution, but he's definitely right about the process.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

This is the typical mainstream nonsense that got us into this mess.

How do you explain the historic results of a weaker economy when we had a surplus and stronger when we had a deficit?

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by reckless

So, you need proof that since the late 1970s when unfettered 'free' trade policies were set in place that we've lost millions of manufacturing jobs, proof that tens of thousands of plants have closed, proof that our transfer of wealth in the trillions have happened. You don't BELIEVE all this? Jesus H. Christ. You need proof? I cannot believe YOU.

I need proof of cause and effect. Job loss and plant closings happen for a lot of reasons, including automation, inability to compete (even against other American companies), etc. Even in a strong economy, thousands of jobs are eliminated every day, and thousands more created.

I need proof of this "transfer of wealth" you keep ranting about. If it is so bad, why are we not broke? How can our economy be booming if we are loosing all of our money?

You just keep repeating the same slogans over and over with no facts to back them up.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Clocker

How do you explain the historic results of a weaker economy when we had a surplus and stronger when we had a deficit?

There are too many variables in an economy to try to look for neat relationships like that, but generally, when money is very loose you get an explosive economy in the short term. That tends to suck in imports also as the country starts consuming more than it produces with all the easy credit.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

There are too many variables in an economy to try to look for neat relationships like that

Then how can all of our economic "woes" be blamed on China?

[tucker6]

Originally Posted by Clocker

Then how can all of our economic "woes" be blamed on China?

Who is blaming China for all our woes? That seems strawmanish to me. I don't blame China or the EU or our NAFTA partners. I blame our govt and our companies for giving things away needlessly for short term political or personal economic gain while weakening our position long term. Well, the long term is here, so it needs to be dealt with.

Classy's posts are spot on. You are a proponent that trade deficits are not a bad thing. If that is true, then why aren't any of our trade partners jumping at the chance to change our trade agreements with them so that they can enjoy the deficits for awhile?

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by tucker6

Who is blaming China for all our woes? That seems strawmanish to me. I don't blame China or the EU or our NAFTA partners. I blame our govt and our companies for giving things away needlessly for short term political or personal economic gain while weakening our position long term. Well, the long term is here, so it needs to be dealt with.

Classy's posts are spot on. You are a proponent that trade deficits are not a bad thing. If that is true, then why aren't any of our trade partners jumping at the chance to change our trade agreements with them so that they can enjoy the deficits for awhile?

Which economy in the world is the strongest right now? Using overall and per capita?

Just curious.

You guys make statements like the bolded ones that aren't backed by any facts... you have no premise other than "Trump said so..."

Secondly, you actually want the government telling employers how to do business?!?!

[tucker6]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

Which economy in the world is the strongest right now? Using overall and per capita?

Just curious.

You guys make statements like the bolded ones that aren't backed by any facts... you have no premise other than "Trump said so..."

Secondly, you actually want the government telling employers how to do business?!?!

I saw the stealing of intellectual property first hand when it was known beforehand that it would happen. It was against all sound business reasoning.
The answer turned out to be that upper mngt in Denmark was looking to maximize revenue and profitability to increase the stock price so that each of the four upper mngt guys could collect on a $5M individual bonus. True story. They sold out the USA wing of the company's future for short term personal gain. That's the bad side of capitalism. I'm against govt input in general, but there needs to be some standardized process for use of intellectual property and the payment of royalties and the institution of restrictions of use and such. That can only come through govt to govt negotiations.

So no, I don't want the govt telling companies how to conduct their business, but I do want govt telling businesses what the maximum they can give away and the minimum they can receive in return for the value they are giving away. That is not to protect the companies, but to ensure the playing field doesn't tilt too much. The Chinese figured out that they could entice capitalists to give away the farm. Using our own system against us so to speak.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by tucker6

Classy's posts are spot on. You are a proponent that trade deficits are not a bad thing. If that is true, then why aren't any of our trade partners jumping at the chance to change our trade agreements with them so that they can enjoy the deficits for awhile?

Trade deficits are not a bad thing if you have a strong economy and a strong currency.

Also, there is little or no evidence that our trade partners understand trade any better than Trump.

There are several articles at this site today that do a good job of explaining the issues: https://cafehayek.com/