Sartin Methodology still used?

[Twin Double]

I have stepped away from the game, but still get the bug to play now and then, more so on the special race days (TC Series, Travers, BC) for pure entertainment.

One of my favorite handicapping books was Modern Pace Handicapping.
I made some light-hearted attempts at applying the Sartin handicapping method many years ago.

I enjoyed the process of trying to apply it but in my experience, it was a lot of work to land the favorite. To be honest I took shortcuts and didn't fully create track profiles, get the most accurate pars I could, etc.


Out of curiosity anyone out there using the Sartin method?

[OverlayHunter]

TD, paceandcom.com has an updated, easier-to-use version with more whistles and bells. https://htr2.com/forums/ started out close to Sartin but is now much more sophisticated with more tools.

[Twin Double]

Originally Posted by OverlayHunter

TD, paceandcom.com has an updated, easier-to-use version with more whistles and bells. https://htr2.com/forums/ started out close to Sartin but is now much more sophisticated with more tools.

Thanks for the link. I will check it out.

[Dave S]

You might want to check out paceandcap.com. They have a decent discussion board there concerning the Sartin methodology. They also offer the RDSS software through Trackmaster. Trackmaster itself has an interesting web based update of Brohamer's MPH software called MPH Pro.

[ranchwest]

Originally Posted by Twin Double

I have stepped away from the game, but still get the bug to play now and then, more so on the special race days (TC Series, Travers, BC) for pure entertainment.

One of my favorite handicapping books was Modern Pace Handicapping.
I made some light-hearted attempts at applying the Sartin handicapping method many years ago.

I enjoyed the process of trying to apply it but in my experience, it was a lot of work to land the favorite. To be honest I took shortcuts and didn't fully create track profiles, get the most accurate pars I could, etc.


Out of curiosity anyone out there using the Sartin method?

I don't follow the methodology strictly, but Sartin-style pace is my basic handicapping approach.

I don't maintain track profiles, but in my opinion %M is an extremely important number and I've learned a way to calculate numbers based on %M to shortcut the profile process for %M. Probably not quite as good as a track profile, but still worthwhile.

In my opinion, the best part of pace handicapping is finding races where the pace sets up to make the favorites vulnerable. Then there can be big longshots come in.

Accurate pars do help, but in my opinion are not mandatory. If you feel pars are important, I would suggest purchasing them rather than working to create the pars. Your time can be better spent in my opinion.

[OverlayHunter]

Yes, Dave, provided the correct address for paceandcap.com. Both sites are worth visiting and both have a wealth of information if you did a little.

[classhandicapper]

I always felt like the Sartin advocates had an interesting approach because I think pace internals and track/distance/surface profiles may be under-appreciated. The way they do things seems like it’s suited to that kind of analysis. But I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a model that captures the complexity of it all well in a formula.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I always felt like the Sartin advocates had an interesting approach because I think pace internals and track/distance/surface profiles may be under-appreciated. The way they do things seems like it’s suited to that kind of analysis. But I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a model that captures the complexity of it all well in a formula.

To do effective “pace internal” handicapping we need an accurate way of measuring the horses’ internal moves so we can relate them to the fractional clockings. Such an accurate measurement method isn’t forthcoming, so instead of effective pace handicapping, we have just guesswork. It’s like telling the drug dealer to measure his cocaine with a penny scale.

[Twin Double]

Howard Sartin sounded like a funny character. I was googling about him a long time ago and read some funny stories about him written by people in his circle back in those days.

I guess he used to hold on-track seminars teaching and selling his system. Attendees would handicap the races and bet trying to apply the system. One person wrote before each race he would buy a couple of $2/W tickets on each horse. Then when some pie-in-the-sky horse would win, an attendee would be like "It would have been impossible to land that horse with this system". Howard would then pull out one of the $2/w tickets and hand it to the person saying "I landed on him, it just takes practice learning which running line to use". Hillarious!

[Twin Double]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

To do effective “pace internal” handicapping we need an accurate way of measuring the horses’ internal moves so we can relate them to the fractional clockings. Such an accurate measurement method isn’t forthcoming, so instead of effective pace handicapping, we have just guesswork. It’s like telling the drug dealer to measure his cocaine with a penny scale.

Yes, well said

Back when I tried to apply the system there was no per-horse time data. You only got the leader's time at each call and would have to do the good old-fashioned beaten lengths adjustment. I figured if the system was good back then it would be great now, considering we now get each horse's actual time at each call. However, after reading other posts on here, maybe that data isn't as accurate as we would think.

[thaskalos]

The funny thing about the Sartin group is, once those gambling-addicted truckdrivers learned how to “beat the races”…no one ever heard from them again.

[Tom]

If you are concerned about the times, I suggest you use TFUS adjusted times.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I always felt like the Sartin advocates had an interesting approach because I think pace internals and track/distance/surface profiles may be under-appreciated. The way they do things seems like it’s suited to that kind of analysis. But I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a model that captures the complexity of it all well in a formula.

The Sartin methodology is more of a toolbox than a formula that magically selects winners.

[thaskalos]

Was Sartin a horseplayer…or was he like those chefs who don’t eat their own cooking?

[Speed Figure]

Seems to be a lot of software creators that don't eat their own food, but will happily sell you a plate!