Religion II

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I have a business proposition for you:

Gather up whatever it is that you've been smoking...and let's sell it to the masses. We'll both be rich in no-time. I'll handle all the marketing and the distribution costs.

It is free and available to everyone. The living water.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

For your edification and intellectual improvement.

Pondering something Franklin said might indeed edificate me improve me intellectually but we each have limited time (as you reveal below), so could I not get more edification and intellectual improvement by pondering tensor analysis, or the least squares method, or the works of Shakespeare, or any of thousands of other subjects? Why ponder Franklin, in whom I have little interest, instead of tomorrow's Derby?

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

You asked why I don't want to commit suicide, so I will tell you.

I won't commit suicide, because I believe life is a gift and I enjoy gifts. Also, I believe life has purpose. One purpose is to generate and support new life, continuation of humanity.

I wake up every day enjoying the beauty of the mountains, the deep blue sky, the green vegetation, etc, all which are pleasing to the eye. I was created for the glory of God and to give God glory.

I have been created to love, to feel emotions and soak up the beauty of creation through my physical senses, the sights, the aromas, the tactile stimulation, etc. Every day I bond with my partner in life, and with my 180 lb dog.

I'm restraining myself.

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Fortunately, all our young ones are on their own, so I can't bond with them every day.

I am thankful for the opportunity to experience the glorious mystery of creation. Surrounded by beauty and love, gives me no urges to end my participation in the miracle of life.

Of course you cannot claim any of those reasons for your continued existence as you accept nihilism and atheism.

I live, you exist without purpose.

We both live without purpose. Your counter belief is a delusion.

Why do you need a purpose to live? Millions in this world live in suffering and torment with no hope of relief. Furthermore they know that there is no hope and yet they do anything to survive. Is it not obvious that we have evolved (or, for the sake of argument only, been created) with a drive to survive above all. Since I (and I assume you also) are not suffering and are enjoying life, is that not enough?

What you are saying is that you have everything that Job had. What if like Job you lost all that, I mean all of it, and you were left with nothing but pain? Would you not consider ending it all? Ponder that.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

It is free and available to everyone. The living water.

Because all you have to do to get "living water" is to say a few words over tap water and, viola, it becomes a religious artifact, immune from any government regulation or allegation of fraud. So says SCOTUS - United States v. L. Ron Hubbard.

I'm feeling a lot better today.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by Actor

Pondering something Franklin said might indeed edificate me improve me intellectually but we each have limited time (as you reveal below), so could I not get more edification and intellectual improvement by pondering tensor analysis, or the least squares method, or the works of Shakespeare, or any of thousands of other subjects? Why ponder Franklin, in whom I have little interest, instead of tomorrow's Derby?
I'm restraining myself.We both live without purpose. Your counter belief is a delusion.

It is about what this country where you reside is about.

Why do you need a purpose to live? Millions in this world live in suffering and torment with no hope of relief. Furthermore they know that there is no hope and yet they do anything to survive. Is it not obvious that we have evolved (or, for the sake of argument only, been created) with a drive to survive above all. Since I (and I assume you also) are not suffering and are enjoying life, is that not enough?

I did not say I need a purpose to live. I said life has purpose.

What you are saying is that you have everything that Job had. What if like Job you lost all that, I mean all of it, and you were left with nothing but pain? Would you not consider ending it all? Ponder that.

Your assumption is wrong, ponder that.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by Actor

Because all you have to do to get "living water" is to say a few words over tap water and, viola, it becomes a religious artifact, immune from any government regulation or allegation of fraud. So says SCOTUS - United States v. L. Ron Hubbard.

I'm feeling a lot better today.

Not even close. You are displaying your ignorance.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

I did not say I need a purpose to live. I said life has purpose.

Now we're getting down to it. And exactly what is that purpose?

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Your assumption is wrong, ponder that.

What assumption?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Not even close. You are displaying your ignorance.

Don't you know about Hubbard's gadget?

[traynor]

Originally Posted by hcap

Doing things mindfully is often very, very difficult. Mindful self observation requires detachment and even explaining detachment to western sensibilities as NOT the cessation of all thought and understanding is a familiar discussion here on this thread

The "garment" both the Buddhist monk and Sufis speak of is the accumulated baggage we have grown in order to cope with the human environment. A good portion of the Greek "know thyself is about that baggage. Benjamin Franklin compared the great difficulty of knowing one's self--- "There are three Things extremely hard, Steel, a Diamond, and to know one's self."

In the Esoteric traditions one goes past personality and eventually moves closer to essence. But quieting the personality and learning to organize it properly generally comes first. And knowing all variations of personality is tough

Gurdjieff described humans as body, Essence and Personality

Mindfulness is used (and useful) in several areas of advanced communication, most notably the "uptime" of NLP and in various induction techniques in Ericksonian hypnotherapy. Unlike mushin, or Castaneda's "shutting off the internal dialogue" which are almost exclusively internal states, the NLP and Ericksonian approaches require a similar internal state while interacting actively with the external environment.

Again, the "attainment" of mindful states is not viewed as an end in itself, but more as a useful tool to enable the doing of other things.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

During this lull in the action, I thought I'd contribute a perspective that comes from decline to participate for the past few months. There is an old saying about the forest and the trees. In reality, when you are in the middle of something - like in the middle of the forest - you have a very different perspective than when you are standing back, seeing the pan shot as it were. You can be a lot more objective about the posts than when you are writing them. Here's the summary standing back and watching. I definitely won't be changing that.

boxcar: I'm right, you're wrong and it doesn't matter what we are talking about, I'm still right and you're wrong. Plus, if you don't believe everything I believe exactly as I say it, even if you don't realize it, you're living the life of a miserable loser.

Actor: In the words of the immortal Pee Wee Herman, I know you are but what am I?

Pace Advantage: The Jews have been around for 6,000 years. You think maybe they've figured out what they meant when they wrote the book in their language?

Hcap: Life is beautiful. Even when you have to interact with boxcar.

Lewis Black: No, our book wasn't good enough for the Christians. They needed their own book with a better character.

Replay Randall: If you can't say it in three sentences or less, just shut the hell up.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

My error, "religious test", i.e. Mormonism

There is a religious test. It's not written down but it's there. How many professing atheists are there in the House of Representatives and the Senate. None. The key word is "professing." In any other sample of over 500 highly educated people you would find a dozen or so atheists but in this group there are none. Why? Because they are lying. Atheism will not get you elected so politicians lie about it.

Mormonism is a bat shit crazy idea yet a major political political party made one of its believers their candidate.

[Greyfox]

HalvOnHorseRacing: "Sees All, Knows All."

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Actor

Mormonism is a bat shit crazy idea yet a major political political party made one of its believers their candidate.

I'm not sure it's all that bat shit more crazy than any other...

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

HalvOnHorseRacing: "Sees All, Knows All."

Yeah, he's PA alter-ego: "I have All the Answers."

[hcap]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

Hcap: Life is beautiful. Even when you have to interact with boxcar.

I've been posting on this thread since it began and arguing with the litterer-minded Bollixedupcar for years before on similar threads. From my point of view you are a young whippersnapper not knowing he involved history of this thread and the main players and specifically my point of view.

Never said life is not beautiful. Many times endeavored to direct the conversation towards the sense of awe and highlighting possible artistic works shared by both the scientific and religious posters as a common starting topic. I've used many diverse subjects i.e.--- fractal geometry and Sufi sacred dance in addition to Kabbalah and the Bhagavad Gita, all of which connect up and all of which have references to what [B]many Esoteric schools of thought called the law of three (Gurdjieff) The earliest occurrences of expression of the Christian Trinity. I've also connected yin yang-duality becoming one to the "Trinity"
The small circles on each side representing the one or neutralizing
principle. Also brings to mind the the three gunas of the Samkhya (Hindu) philosophy. The three gunas are called: sattva (goodness, constructive, harmonious), rajas (passion, active, confused), and tamas (darkness, destructive, chaotic).

BTW, I no longer have to interact with boxcar (no one has to) and although life is still beautiful it is certainly less noisy.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

BTW, I no longer have to interact with boxcar (no one has to) and although life is still beautiful it is certainly less noisy.

This is good news, indeed, that you have free choice in this matter, considering that Christians are frequently accused of forcing their views upon folks like you. One of your more coherent posts...