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10-28-2010, 02:51 PM
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#16
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,861
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by InsideThePylons-MW
Whoever accepts the bet is bookmaking.
Do you really think that would be legal?
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I know it's legal in Connecticut. The men playing poker on the train took the case to court and won.
Poker is bookmaking. Each player books the bets of the others in the game.
Pari-mutuel wagering is bookmaking. The booking is distributed among all the players.
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10-28-2010, 02:53 PM
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#17
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Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,908
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by InsideThePylons-MW
Whoever accepts the bet is bookmaking.
It doesn't matter if 2 guys agree on it and their is no takeout.
If John and Robert wanted to open up a bookmaking shop....they would sit at a table in the "betting club"....other clubmember bettors would walk in and tell John and Robert who they like....John would say I like SF at +100...Robert would say I like Tex at +110 so the customer would/could either bet Tex at +100 with John or SF at -110 with Robert. Obviously the same applies to the internet.
Do you really think that would be legal?
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Isn't Gordon Jones the best example. It was a long time ago but he paid the price. I don't rember all the details.
Racing Reporter Gordon Jones Is Arrested for Bookmaking
http://articles.latimes.com/keyword/gordon-jones
Last edited by andymays; 10-28-2010 at 02:55 PM.
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10-28-2010, 02:54 PM
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,861
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Valuist
Sounds basically like a gambling hedge fund, which Mark Cuban was trying to organize.
The next question is, who is the head decision maker?
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Maybe the club would have a board who decides what the rules are and decides who to allow in or kick out.
The software would be open source and free. So anyone could start a club.
Maybe the members of one club are Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Mark Cuban and few other billionaires. Maybe another club is made up of members of PaceAdvantage. Maybe another club is made up of NASCAR mechanics. etc. etc. etc.
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10-28-2010, 02:59 PM
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#19
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,861
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by andymays
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If Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Carlos Slim, Steve Jobs and Mark Cuban bet among themselves on the Kentucky Derby over the internet using this open source software do you really think they would be arrested?
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10-28-2010, 03:08 PM
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#20
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Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,908
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by swetyejohn
If Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Carlos Slim, Steve Jobs and Mark Cuban bet among themselves on the Kentucky Derby over the internet using this open source software do you really think they would be arrested?
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No.
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10-28-2010, 05:47 PM
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#21
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PA Steward
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,799
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by swetyejohn
I know it's legal in Connecticut.
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Something tells me it isn't.
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10-28-2010, 05:51 PM
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,861
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage
Something tells me it isn't.
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What is that something that tells you it isn't?
I know it to be a fact that these four men who commuted on MetroNorth and played poker on the train everyday had their day in court and they won. They are allowed to play a private game of poker for real stakes on the train.
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10-28-2010, 07:11 PM
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#23
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PA Steward
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,799
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by swetyejohn
What is that something that tells you it isn't?
I know it to be a fact that these four men who commuted on MetroNorth and played poker on the train everyday had their day in court and they won. They are allowed to play a private game of poker for real stakes on the train.
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Guys playing poker on the train is a completely different world altogether IMO. For starters, would you restrict your betting club to only residents of Connecticut?
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10-28-2010, 07:15 PM
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#24
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,861
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I was right, in general, but some of my facts were not correct. The event I'm talking about happened in 1994! I'm surprised I remembered it at all. 
See NY Times Oct. 6, 1994 for the story about the arrests.
See NY Times May 13, 1995 for the story about the resolution.
Headline May 13, 1995: "Poker Dispute with Railroad Ends Well for 4 Players"
Four men were arrested for playing poker on the Hudson Line of Metro-North on the evening of Friday, Sept 30, 1994. A year later the four men dropped their $4 million civil suit and settled out of court. It was reported they received between $30 and $40 thousand each.
Embarrassed Metro-North officials reassured their riders that there would not be a crackdown on a form of recreation enjoyed by many riders.
Last edited by swetyejohn; 10-28-2010 at 07:19 PM.
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10-28-2010, 07:19 PM
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#25
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,861
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage
Guys playing poker on the train is a completely different world altogether IMO. For starters, would you restrict your betting club to only residents of Connecticut?
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It would not be up to me to set restrictions. I am interested in creating open source software that would allow bettors to connect over the internet in a peer-to-peer fashion. It would not be my job to say who can and can not use the software.
If some user wants to have 10,000 members from all over the world that is his or her decision to make.
I was thinking more along the lines of small private groups of people who want to get together to bet among themselves, privately.
This is a good example of how government tries to intrude on citizens' privacy. If I want to have a bet with my friends that is no business of the government.
Last edited by swetyejohn; 10-28-2010 at 07:22 PM.
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10-28-2010, 09:53 PM
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#26
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The State of Rutgers
Posts: 309
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Just a couple of quick comments.
Keep in mind your "club" would need to comply with the Interstate Horse Racing Act of 1978, the poker game on the train does not.
Gambling and bookmaking laws vary by jurisdiction, but in most places establishing a meeting place or system for the purpose of bringing people together to wager is illegal whether you intend to profit from it or not.(unless of course you are a legal and/or licensed casino, bookmaker, racetrack etc.) It is basically the promotion of bookmaking.
And in some jurisdictions, any software that is used to facilitate bets would be construed to be a bookmaking instrument, and therefore is illegal.
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10-29-2010, 01:42 AM
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#27
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,861
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You make several good points.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rutgers
Just a couple of quick comments.
Keep in mind your "club" would need to comply with the Interstate Horse Racing Act of 1978, the poker game on the train does not.
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I don't think the software would have a poker function, but maybe it could. I have read where Warren Buffett plays bridge online. So it would probably not be too difficult to write poker software. I think one challenge would be creating a good random number generator.
Quote:
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Gambling and bookmaking laws vary by jurisdiction, but in most places establishing a meeting place or system for the purpose of bringing people together to wager is illegal whether you intend to profit from it or not.(unless of course you are a legal and/or licensed casino, bookmaker, racetrack etc.) It is basically the promotion of bookmaking.
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I don't think this law applies to software. Software is not a meeting place. So that part does not apply.
I don't think the words "system for the purpose of bringing together to wager" applies either, otherwise the 4 men who filed a $4 million civil suit against Metro-North railroad would not have prevailed. They clearly had a system of getting together on the train to bet. I have seen people bring a piece of wood onto the train that sits on the laps of the passengers to form a poker table. These people do not get arrested.
Quote:
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And in some jurisdictions, any software that is used to facilitate bets would be construed to be a bookmaking instrument, and therefore is illegal.
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All betting would be for purely entertainment purposes only and not with real money. I can't control for what purposes people use the software. It's social networking software.
Also, this software would be downloadable from a server or servers that might reside in various jurisdictions around the world. It would be open source with many authors.
I have heard of mayors of the cities of World Series teams making friendly wagers. Technically, this should be illegal since consideration is involved. I have never heard of mayors being arrested for gambling. Worse yet, they're doing it while on city time!
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10-30-2010, 04:37 AM
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#28
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 175
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Matchsticks
Everyone plays for "matchsticks". If I win our "matchstick" bet you send me your "matchsticks" electronically to my individual account that we all agree on. Since we are all "Pals" in the club we could call the account our "Pay your Pals" account. Huh? might work.
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10-30-2010, 10:40 AM
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#29
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Racing Form Detective
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lincoln, Ne but my heart is at Santa Anita
Posts: 16,316
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Legal or not, I smell attorney fees connected to its use.
__________________
Some day in the not too distant future, horse players will betting on computer generated races over the net. Race tracks will become casinos and shopping centers. And some crooner will be belting out "there used to be a race track here".
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10-30-2010, 11:26 AM
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,861
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AAcoolguy
Everyone plays for "matchsticks". If I win our "matchstick" bet you send me your "matchsticks" electronically to my individual account that we all agree on. Since we are all "Pals" in the club we could call the account our "Pay your Pals" account. Huh? might work.
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I would think that the first time your "pal" makes a lame excuse why he can't pay, you will no longer be pals. On the other hand you will discover who the people with honor and integrity are.
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