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Old 03-18-2019, 01:01 PM   #10261
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You tasked her? Did you mean you "asked" her? Or are you from one of those sects where the man is the big boss and the woman does what she's told?
You read it correctly the first time. Feel free to read into it whatever you want.
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Old 03-18-2019, 01:10 PM   #10262
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So let me get this straight box. You remember something like betting the wrong horse. (cause). You proceed to alter (effect) that wrong bet, say 5 years ago? Therefore cause preceded effect as you just proved?

Eh , no wonder you were a successful handicapper.

Oh my gawd 20/20 hindsight WORKS!

Finally your Proof. Q.E.D!
After 3 weeks

Learn that from Ray?
You should go back to sleep. The irrefutable fact is that each one us has the ability to hold a final cause (the effect, the end, the purpose, the goal) in our mind long before any prior causes kick in.

Also, you're confusing influences or affects with causes. To cause something is to bring about or bring to effect by command, authority or force.
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Old 03-18-2019, 01:17 PM   #10263
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Just very recently, my handicapping partner in crime programmed a module in his program at my request. He asked that I lay out the design and beam it up to him. It was easy to do because even before I asked him to create the module, I knew the end from the beginning. I had the design, the end, the effect in my mind. I knew the chief end of the particular module and I was able to layout the design in a spreadsheet in short order. What took me a matter of mere seconds to do in my mind, and what took me several minutes to do in spreadsheet, it took my buddy 40 hours to physically accomplish my desired end.

I told you that my answer would be self-evident to all. Well...that is to say, to everyone who isn't simple-minded and acknowledges that human activity isn't just physical in nature.
No wonder your backwards time theory is so imaginative. You can not discern imagination and fantasy from future reality.

Try building something. Particularly commercially. Or instead of your partner programming, get off your imaginative butt and experience the reality of the future being quite different than how you imagine it. Ultimately mental activity can not be proven separate from matter. We have had this come up before. You have simply switched conundrums. Can you speak to ghosts perchance?

Wanna bet bunky?
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Old 03-18-2019, 01:41 PM   #10264
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I bet you had imaginary playmates
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Old 03-18-2019, 01:45 PM   #10265
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One of my favorites.

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Old 03-18-2019, 01:47 PM   #10266
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And here is one for you. How old are you? Maybe you can play?

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Old 03-18-2019, 01:54 PM   #10267
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No wonder your backwards time theory is so imaginative. You can not discern imagination and fantasy from future reality.

Try building something. Particularly commercially. Or instead of your partner programming, get off your imaginative butt and experience the reality of the future being quite different than how you imagine it. Ultimately mental activity can not be proven separate from matter. We have had this come up before. You have simply switched conundrums. Can you speak to ghosts perchance?

Wanna bet bunky?
I have already proved it. We can do things with our minds that we cannot with our bodies. But why do you worry yourself about such things? In your world mental activity is non-existent.

And ultimately revisiting the past relies solely on our mind. Our brains store memories but our PHYSICAL BRAINS CAN NO MORE CARRY US BACK TO THE PAST THAN OUR PHYSICAL FEET CAN!, But what can make the past so vivid for us is our mind as it taps into the memory banks of the brain. By our mind we can slip into and out of the past at will.

Ditto for the chess master who has his immediate future all planned out against his opponent. His physical brain cannot carry him 3 minutes into the future but his mind can carry him. With his mind he can clearly see the outcome that will take place 3 minutes from now.

Ever hear the old adage: "Mind over Matter"? The mind is a terrible thing to waste, and you are the most pathetic living proof of this maxim, as well.
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:04 PM   #10268
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But what can make the past so vivid for us is our mind as it taps into the memory banks of the brain. By our mind we can slip into and out of the past at will
But can it change one iota of the past outside of your mind?

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our mind as it taps into the memory banks of the brain
What does your partners program tap into?


I am ready to give up.
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:22 PM   #10269
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You are royally confusing the map for the territory. You are nixing up concepts and mental representations of time, for time.!!
Quote:
The map–territory relation describes the relationship between an object and a representation of that object, as in the relation between a geographical territory and a map of it
You have outdone yourself in the tricky art of self-delusion.

Try being honest with yourself for a change.
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:46 PM   #10270
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So how do we know reality?
Observation? Experience?
Two question marks! So you don't know how we know reality!
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:52 PM   #10271
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Of course, you won't answer it because you know that your claim that all human activity is physical in nature is entirely false.

So, I'll answer for you because you will never grow a backbone. Of course human beings can go back in time. We do this all the time mentally. We can do things with our minds that we cannot do physically.

Three of the definitions of "mental" are these: of or relating to the mind (primary definition)

occurring or experienced in the mind.

And of, relating to or being intellectual as contrasted with overt physical activity.

Likewise, in our minds we often conceive of effects prior to causes! Or to wax more Aristotleian -- with our minds, we can indeed cut to the chase and bypass material, formal and efficient causes (which we cannot do physically) and get right to Granddaddy of all Causes -- the Final Cause. For it is the Final Cause that speaks to a thing's purpose, its end to its goal -- indeed to its teleology.

With a little thought (which I certainly don't expect from you,since you have already denied the existence of mental activity!) we can think of many examples. A chess master can see the end from the beginning in his mind by seeing many moves ahead. He's mapped out his strategy and knows its end before ever touching a chess piece to implement the goal he has in his mind. The end game is entrenched in his mind without ever physically touching a chess piece.

This house I'm living in was chosen by my wife. I tasked her with the chore of choosing a house because she had a very specific kind of house in mind. She had a certain kind of kitchen in mind. A certain layout that would separate the master bedroom form the guest bedrooms. A certain kind of family room she wanted. A double-car garage, etc., etc. She had the house mapped out that would suit her purpose. The effect -- the finished product was in her mind, absent any causes! She wasn't thinking in terms of causes but only in terms of effects, a/k/a final causes.

People who design things often get ideas in their minds and the can see the end from the beginning. They can skip all the intermediate causes and jump immediately to the Final Cause and see that that their idea has a practical end -- a purpose.

When we encounter some kind of repair problem, we can often envision in our mind what's needed for a fix because we have the ability to see the end from the beginning. Only when we go to implement the fix physically are we bound to obey the Law of the Four causes in their order prior to reaching the final cause -- the purpose, the end -- the goal.

Just very recently, my handicapping partner in crime programmed a module in his program at my request. He asked that I lay out the design and beam it up to him. It was easy to do because even before I asked him to create the module, I knew the end from the beginning. I had the design, the end, the effect in my mind. I knew the chief end of the particular module and I was able to layout the design in a spreadsheet in short order. What took me a matter of mere seconds to do in my mind, and what took me several minutes to do in spreadsheet, it took my buddy 40 hours to physically accomplish my desired end.

I told you that my answer would be self-evident to all. Well...that is to say, to everyone who isn't simple-minded and acknowledges that human activity isn't just physical in nature.
Weak metaphysical examples can lead to weak, larger metaphysical concepts like backward time flow. Or is man not a union of matter and spirit? How then does exercising one's memory constitute "going back in time"?

With your given example, you should instead fight for intentionality in nature to support the existence of final causes. Look at your phrase again. In order to possess a unified sense of self between our past, present and future (principle of proportionate causality), in the present moment you retained the memory of "we can go back". In order to join the thought in the present, you looked to the future to close with "we can't do physically".
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:51 PM   #10272
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Weak metaphysical examples can lead to weak, larger metaphysical concepts like backward time flow. Or is man not a union of matter and spirit? How then does exercising one's memory constitute "going back in time"?

With your given example, you should instead fight for intentionality in nature to support the existence of final causes. Look at your phrase again. In order to possess a unified sense of self between our past, present and future (principle of proportionate causality), in the present moment you retained the memory of "we can go back". In order to join the thought in the present, you looked to the future to close with "we can't do physically".
I wasn't going to "fight for intentionality in nature to support the existence of final causes" for two reasons: A) I did that previously many moons ago by taking an example or two out of Feser's book; and B) virtually all who subscribe to Materialism as a world view will never admit to the existence of the Four Causes, [b]even though, as Feser correctly pointed out, we all know intuitively these causes exists. Only the Hcaps, Actors,Hanks and TJ's, etc. can deny with a straight face that the nature all life itself is goal-directedness. All is done for a purpose. But I will not waste my time arguing with the simple-minded.

And just because man is a union of matter and non-matter, doesn't imply that the two components can't function very differently. In fact, they not only function differently, but the two components complement each other! I would remind you of the Trinity -- the triune God who is One; yet Father, Son and Holy Spirit have different functions. "I and the Father are One" -- BUT also -- "...the Father is greater than I", etc.

P.S. It just occurred to me that since you're read Feser's "The Last Superstition", you must know that he firmly believed that effects often occur in intellect prior to causes. You do agree with him, yes?
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:52 PM   #10273
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Two question marks! So you don't know how we know reality!
Another question mark dead ahead, strap yourself in: Do you know what rhetorical questions are?
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Old 03-18-2019, 05:07 PM   #10274
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Do you know what rhetorical questions are?
I asked one in #10250.
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Old 03-18-2019, 05:36 PM   #10275
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I wasn't going to "fight for intentionality in nature to support the existence of final causes" for two reasons: A) I did that previously many moons ago by taking an example or two out of Feser's book; and B) virtually all who subscribe to Materialism as a world view will never admit to the existence of the Four Causes, [b]even though, as Feser correctly pointed out, we all know intuitively these causes exists. Only the Hcaps, Actors,Hanks and TJ's, etc. can deny with a straight face that the nature all life itself is goal-directedness. All is done for a purpose. But I will not waste my time arguing with the simple-minded.

And just because man is a union of matter and non-matter, doesn't imply that the two components can't function very differently. In fact, they not only function differently, but the two components complement each other! I would remind you of the Trinity -- the triune God who is One; yet Father, Son and Holy Spirit have different functions. "I and the Father are One" -- BUT also -- "...the Father is greater than I", etc.

P.S. It just occurred to me that since you're read Feser's "The Last Superstition", you must know that he firmly believed that effects often occur in intellect prior to causes. You do agree with him, yes?
Sorry, but the "function" of your memory, within the mind, has retrieved something from the past. YOU remain in the present. The nature of man, as union of matter/spirit we would state, explains what he is capable of--thinking about the past while firmly planted, e.g. The alternatives are to be a disembodied spirit--I hope you're not there yet--or an eliminative materialist ("Alex Rosenberg, call your office"), where your mental journeys, and everything else that can't be quantified, is an illusion.

The Trinity analogy is an anthropomorphic metaphor, sanctioned by Christ and used by Paul, et.al., to enable us to retain the sense of three Persons possessing one nature. The theological word is "appropriation" to designate "functions" for our benefit. There is no "function" of the Divine Persons whereby their starting times are staggered. Each wholly possesses the Divine Nature in their Person. Of course Christ alone is "Redeemer" in the sense of his human nature.

I would encourage you to put down "triunity"--finding "3" in the natural world--and pick up Frank Sheed (Theology and Sanity) for a discussion of the inner life of the Trinity and how it relates to God's external operations.
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