Religion II

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Just to clarify, what Ham and Eggs got right is the math.

Meanwhile, you have gotten nothing right.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Straw man. Jephthah's daughter.

You are making my case for me here.

Almost missed this, so let's put this puppy to bed, shall we? First off, let's fly with your argument and interpret the passage as meaning that Jephthah sacrificed his daughter -- you know -- for the sake of argument. Just because the bible records sinful acts, even of believers, doesn't mean that scripture sanctions those acts! But somehow you equate the record of sinful acts with God sanctioning them! Scripture records for us that Rahab was a prostitute, so does that mean God sanctions prostitution? Scripture records the heinous sins of one of the greatest heroes in the OT, King David. Does this mean that scripture sanctions adultery and murder, etc., etc. So, no, I have not made your case. Instead, you continue to make the case for building your own lofty high tower of tomfoolery with such an obvious and blatantly phony moral equivalency. For The Law of Moses strictly forbids human sacrifice.

Deut 18:10-13
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the Lord your God.
NASB

Therefore, if Jephthah actually made his daughter "pass through the fire", he, at the very least acted in ignorance, but nonetheless committed a heinous sin against God and his daughter. But his sinful act would present no bible difficulties -- no moral dilemmas or contradictions.

However, there is good reason to believe that the above is the wrong interpretation of what happened to this daughter -- from a contextual standpoint and from syntactical one. Here is the most literal rendering of Jud 11:30,31:

Judg 11:30-31
30 And Jephthah voweth a vow to Jehovah, and saith, 'If Thou dost at all give the Bene-Ammon into my hand —

31 then it hath been, that which at all cometh out from the doors of my house to meet me in my turning back in peace from the Bene-Ammon — it hath been to Jehovah, or I have offered up for it — a burnt-offering.'
YLT

The phrase in v.31 "it hath been to Jehovah" basically means he would consecrate it to Jehovah. And this phrase is followed by the second with begins with "OR" -- not an "and" as most translations have.

The links below make the arguments for this second interpretation. I tend to lean toward this interpretation since it agrees with the context of the passage. It seems that the daughter had no concern for her life but rather that she would spend all her life as an unmarried spinster. And this fits the part of the vow that would have applied in this case, which had to do with him consecrating his daughter to Jehovah for her entire life. Another major reason I hold this view is that such a vow of consecration was permitted under the Law of Moses (cf. Lev 21:2; 1Sam 1:11;24-28).

https://www.christiancourier.com/art...-jephthahs-vow

https://www.chabad.org/library/artic...s-daughter.htm

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

First off, let's fly with your argument and interpret the passage as meaning that Jephthah sacrificed his daughter...

Judges 11:30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

39.. she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed...

Originally Posted by boxcar

Scripture records for us that Rahab was a prostitute...

39 ... she knew no man.

Straw man! Rahab has nothing to do with it. Jephthah's daughter was virtuous.


As a test God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son but intervened at the last instant.

Jephthah promised to make a "burnt offering" to God. That means to place something on an alter, kill it, set it on fire, and wait for the flames to consume it. Unlike Abraham, Jephthah made the offer up front. Unlike Abraham, God did not intervene. In effect Jephthah offered God anything he wanted since God had it in his power (he's God for Christ's sake) to arrange for anything to appear in the doorway. Did God arrange for Jephthah to be met by the family cat? Or by a pesky rat? No, God arranged for Jephthah's daughter to meet him. Did God stop Jephthah from killing his daughter. No. God wanted all this to take place.

Matthew 10:29. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s will.

God did not want Jephthah's daughter to become a nun, he wanted her killed and burned. He has a taste for barbecue.


You want to have your cake and eat it too. How many times have you said that the meaning of scripture is clear (words to that effect). Yet when the meaning is clear you yell "Context, context, context" and come up with some bullshit interpretation that is anything but clear.

[Actor]

[Actor]

YouTube

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Judges 11:30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

39.. she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed...
39 ... she knew no man.

Straw man! Rahab has nothing to do with it. Jephthah's daughter was virtuous.


As a test God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son but intervened at the last instant.

Jephthah promised to make a "burnt offering" to God. That means to place something on an alter, kill it, set it on fire, and wait for the flames to consume it. Unlike Abraham, Jephthah made the offer up front. Unlike Abraham, God did not intervene. In effect Jephthah offered God anything he wanted since God had it in his power (he's God for Christ's sake) to arrange for anything to appear in the doorway. Did God arrange for Jephthah to be met by the family cat? Or by a pesky rat? No, God arranged for Jephthah's daughter to meet him. Did God stop Jephthah from killing his daughter. No. God wanted all this to take place.

[quote]You didn't read my last post or the links I sent. I know what a "burnt offering" means. Do you know what OR means?

Matthew 10:29. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s will.

God did not want Jephthah's daughter to become a nun, he wanted her killed and burned. He has a taste for barbecue.

Prove it from scripture. Human sacrifice were prohibited under God's Law. Just because God permits sin to take place does not mean he approves of it.
When Herod slaughtered all male children in the Bethlehem area, in the hope of slaying the Christ child, that doesn't mean that God smiled upon that act or did a wink-wink.

The Matthew passage has nothing to do with the Jephthah narrative. As you would say...a straw man.

You want to have your cake and eat it too. How many times have you said that the meaning of scripture is clear (words to that effect). Yet when the meaning is clear you yell "Context, context, context" and come up with some bullshit interpretation that is anything but clear.

Even if you don't accept the alternate interpretation, you have not established the fact that God approved of the human sacrifice. Prove it from scripture. Scripture is replete,with, perhaps, thousands of examples wherein God permitted evil to take place for his sovereign purposes but that does not translate into his approval of any sinful act. God allows sinners everyday on this planet to commit sins, many of them heinous and vile -- but so what? God is just and he will judge all sinners through Christ at the end of the age. If Jephthah did indeed sin, he will be judged for his sin, yet, as a saint he will not be condemned since he was a true OT saint of God (see Hebrews 11).

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Judges 11:30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

39.. she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed...
39 ... she knew no man.

Straw man! Rahab has nothing to do with it. Jephthah's daughter was virtuous.


As a test God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son but intervened at the last instant.

Jephthah promised to make a "burnt offering" to God. That means to place something on an alter, kill it, set it on fire, and wait for the flames to consume it. Unlike Abraham, Jephthah made the offer up front. Unlike Abraham, God did not intervene. In effect Jephthah offered God anything he wanted since God had it in his power (he's God for Christ's sake) to arrange for anything to appear in the doorway. Did God arrange for Jephthah to be met by the family cat? Or by a pesky rat? No, God arranged for Jephthah's daughter to meet him. Did God stop Jephthah from killing his daughter. No. God wanted all this to take place.

You didn't read my last post or the links I sent. I know what a "burnt offering" means. Do you know what OR means?

Matthew 10:29. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s will.

God did not want Jephthah's daughter to become a nun, he wanted her killed and burned. He has a taste for barbecue.

Prove it from scripture. Human sacrifice were prohibited under God's Law. Just because God permits sin to take place does not mean he approves of it.
When Herod slaughtered all male children in the Bethlehem area, in the hope of slaying the Christ child, that doesn't mean that God smiled upon that act or did a wink-wink.

The Matthew passage has nothing to do with the Jephthah narrative. As you would say...a straw man.

You want to have your cake and eat it too. How many times have you said that the meaning of scripture is clear (words to that effect). Yet when the meaning is clear you yell "Context, context, context" and come up with some bullshit interpretation that is anything but clear.

Even if you don't accept the alternate interpretation, you have not established the fact that God approved of the human sacrifice. Prove it from scripture. Scripture is replete,with, perhaps, thousands of examples wherein God permitted evil to take place for his sovereign purposes but that does not translate into his approval of any sinful act. God allows sinners everyday on this planet to commit sins, many of them heinous and vile -- but so what? God is just and he will judge all sinners through Christ at the end of the age. If Jephthah did indeed sin, he will be judged for his sin, yet, as a saint he will not be condemned since he was a true OT saint of God (see Hebrews 11).

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Judges 11:30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

39.. she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed...
39 ... she knew no man.

Straw man! Rahab has nothing to do with it. Jephthah's daughter was virtuous.


As a test God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son but intervened at the last instant.

Jephthah promised to make a "burnt offering" to God. That means to place something on an alter, kill it, set it on fire, and wait for the flames to consume it. Unlike Abraham, Jephthah made the offer up front. Unlike Abraham, God did not intervene. In effect Jephthah offered God anything he wanted since God had it in his power (he's God for Christ's sake) to arrange for anything to appear in the doorway. Did God arrange for Jephthah to be met by the family cat? Or by a pesky rat? No, God arranged for Jephthah's daughter to meet him. Did God stop Jephthah from killing his daughter. No. God wanted all this to take place.

Matthew 10:29. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s will.

God did not want Jephthah's daughter to become a nun, he wanted her killed and burned. He has a taste for barbecue.


You want to have your cake and eat it too. How many times have you said that the meaning of scripture is clear (words to that effect). Yet when the meaning is clear you yell "Context, context, context" and come up with some bullshit interpretation that is anything but clear.

Oh yeah...and one other thing...Rahab and King David are both excellent examples of people whose sins were RECORDED in the bible. But again, that doesn't mean that God approved of their sins or sinful lifestyle. IF Jephthah actually sinned, then that sin, is ALSO RECORDED in scripture. Therefore, the two examples I cited, among numerous ones that could have been cited, are legitimate.

Also, you may want to ponder why Jephthah's daughter did not lament her pending death, but rather lamented what would be a perpetual virgin. She lamented the fact that she would never marry and have kids because she was consecrated unto God.. And this fact, squares well with the syntax problem whereby the Hebrew for "and" can and often translated "or".

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Human sacrifice were prohibited under God's Law.

Where?

Do you love God?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Where?

THIS IS PROOF POSITIVE THAT YOU DO NOT READ WHAT I POST OR THE CONTENTS OF THE LINKS I POST BECAUSE YOU DO NOT WANT TO UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURE.

Go back and read my post of yesterday. I even quoted the scripture with the hopes that you wouldn't miss it!

Do you love God?

A non sequitur to this discussion.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

THIS IS PROOF POSITIVE THAT YOU DO NOT READ WHAT I POST OR THE CONTENTS OF THE LINKS I POST BECAUSE YOU DO NOT WANT TO UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURE.

Go back and read my post of yesterday. I even quoted the scripture with the hopes that you wouldn't miss it!

Scripture proves nothing. I established a policy back in Religion I that I would read your posts (or anyone's posts) up to the point where you start quoting scripture, then I bail.

I'll read your scripture and your links (but not nested links) if you'll watch the videos I post links to. Deal?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

A non sequitur to this discussion.

A legitimate question nonetheless.

I'll go out on a limb and assume your answer is "Yes, I do love God." Next question: "Why?"

[Light]

Actor

Boxcar's love of God is FEAR based. That is NOT love. That is FEAR.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Light

Actor

Boxcar's love of God is FEAR based. That is NOT love. That is FEAR.

Not only is Boxcar's love for God "fear-based"...it is also purely CONDITIONAL. He "loves" God only because he believes that this "love" will get him into the "Heavenly Kingdom". When we love someone and expect a "reward" in return...is that the sort of love that we should be proud of?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Scripture proves nothing. I established a policy back in Religion I that I would read your posts (or anyone's posts) up to the point where you start quoting scripture, then I bail.

I'll read your scripture and your links (but not nested links) if you'll watch the videos I post links to. Deal?

Then that's on you. I don't waste my time with vids because I've been there and done that and know the majority of lame arguments of infidels. And if you don't want to click on my links to read them or my posts, then we're done.

And if scripture proves nothing, then why did you ask me earlier to provide biblical proof that God forbids human sacrifices in his Law? You are so duplicitous.