Religion III

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Teleology suffers from lack of evidence. So does Aristotle's approach.
Metaphysics itself. can only go so far as an indication of truth. As I said Aristotle thought heavier objects fell faster than lighter ones. Should not a proper metaphysical understanding include the beginnings of a scientific method to iron out the rough points of what is observable. Readily available to all of us is the orderly examination of cause and effect. I know, you think that is ONLY the province of the "MODERNS", but it is more basic than that. All cultural progress from a tribal society to a agricultural, to a modern industrial one, relied on observing, testing and remembering how one event led to another.

You can spin your metaphysical wheels all you want but your a priori assumptions precede all philosophical conclusions. For all of us.

My profound agnosticism depends on some sort of feedback from the world in fine-tuning my a priiori standings before venturing out on a limb. A complex named to death limb.

I keep speaking of direct first hand experience and you guys assume you can "think" your way to the underlying truths.

One of the influences of the school I belonged was the Advaita Vedanta tradition. However it took a while for the members of the school to connect to what was called a "realized man". Yes they still exist. The Shankaracharya was a spiritual leader of India renounced in his tradition. The first meeting occurred in the 1950's. An early portable tape machine was brought to make a recording of his comments. After introductions were made the interview began. But the British group leaders had trouble getting their kinda primitive machine to work. They were disappointed. But after asking a slew of questions through a translator, and although never seeing the machine before, the Shankaracharya had it functioning properly.

It doesn't matter that Aristotle's science was off with respect to gravity, since metaphysics is not grounded in science per se. Science relies on empirical probabilistic data to reach its conclusions; whereas metaphysics relies on reason and experience from which premises are formed and conclusions are reached. And when a conclusion necessarily follows a correct set of premises, then we know a thing to be true, e.g. Aristotle's Four Causes which, as Feser has correctly said, are "self-evident".

[boxcar]

I see, thus far, no one seems to be eager to justify their existence in this accidental, purposeless universe.

I just finished watching the final installment of The Matrix Trilogy, since many years have elapsed between now and my first viewing. For you Matrix fans, I'm sure you all remember who Mr. Smith is, right? The arch enemy of our hero Mr. Anderson.

Near the very end of the last segment, an epic fight takes place between these two characters and just when it seemed that Mr. Smith was victorious, Mr. Anderson refuses to stay down. Smith is greatly angered and extremely frustrated by Anderson's persistence, demanding to know why he won't stay down because to Smith's way of thinking humans have only one purpose: The only reason humans exist is so they can go out of existence. (Essentially, what he told Anderson is that his purpose is to come to his end.) Several months ago, this is exactly what I reasoned must be mankind's purpose in an atheistic and agnostic world: The purpose to our birth is our eventual and inevitable death. The moment we are born, the dying process begins.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I see, thus far, no one seems to be eager to justify their existence in this accidental, purposeless universe....
The purpose to our birth is our eventual and inevitable death. The moment we are born, the dying process begins.

Yes. But if we are lucky we go through various Stages of Life.
Your comment above brings to mind this poem that I heard years ago.



THE DASH
by Linda Ellis

I read of a man who stood to speak at the funeral of a friend. He referred to the dates on the tombstone from the beginning… to the end.

He noted that first came the date of birth and spoke of the following date with tears, but he said what mattered most of all was the dash between those years.

For that dash represents all the time they spent alive on earth and now only those who loved them know what that little line is worth.

For it matters not, how much we own, the cars… the house… the cash. What matters is how we live and love and how we spend our dash.

So think about this long and hard; are there things you’d like to change? For you never know how much time is left that still can be rearranged.

To be less quick to anger and show appreciation more and love the people in our lives like we’ve never loved before.

If we treat each other with respect and more often wear a smile… remembering that this special dash might only last a little while.

So when your eulogy is being read, with your life’s actions to rehash, would you be proud of the things they say about how you lived your dash?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I'm sure he has imagined a personal, subjective, feel-good purpose for himself. If you go back and read what I said the other day, I said there can be no objective purpose to life, to human existence in an atheistic or agnostic world view.

It would be very interesting to take a poll that would solicit people's opinions on what they think their purpose is in life, especially since many "experts" of the human mind believe that humans are goal-directed or "aim-oriented" as Wiki said. To their credit (I suppose) these experts have noticed about themselves and others that we, generally, live goal-directed lives -- we live life as though we have purpose.

But isn't this curious to say the least!? How did we humans supposedly evolve with all this intentionality "hard-wired" into us when our roots are sunk deep into an impersonal, chaotic, purposeless, intentionality-free universe?

The tension between these two concepts is further exacerbated by the universal truth that only like kinds can produce. As Jesus himself taught, a bad tree can only produce bad fruit, a good tree only good fruit; and we see that this universal, spiritual/metaphysical principle applies across the entire spectrum of life -- even at the biological level.

So, tell me, Thask, what do you think your purpose is in life?

At this point of my life, my ambition for "success", and the "finer things in life" has largely given way...and I am now content to live the contemplative life. My purpose is to get to know MYSELF...and to understand why I think and do what I think and do during the course of my day. "Know thyself and you will know the universe and the Gods", my ancient ancestors used to say...and I endeavor to find out for myself if they were speaking the truth.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by hcap

Teleology suffers from lack of evidence. So does Aristotle's approach.
Metaphysics itself. can only go so far as an indication of truth. As I said Aristotle thought heavier objects fell faster than lighter ones. Should not a proper metaphysical understanding include the beginnings of a scientific method to iron out the rough points of what is observable. Readily available to all of us is the orderly examination of cause and effect. I know, you think that is ONLY the province of the "MODERNS", but it is more basic than that. All cultural progress from a tribal society to a agricultural, to a modern industrial one, relied on observing, testing and remembering how one event led to another.

You can spin your metaphysical wheels all you want but your a priori assumptions precede all philosophical conclusions. For all of us.

My profound agnosticism depends on some sort of feedback from the world in fine-tuning my a priiori standings before venturing out on a limb. A complex named to death limb.

I keep speaking of direct first hand experience and you guys assume you can "think" your way to the underlying truths.

One of the influences of the school I belonged was the Advaita Vedanta tradition. However it took a while for the members of the school to connect to what was called a "realized man". Yes they still exist. The Shankaracharya was a spiritual leader of India renounced in his tradition. The first meeting occurred in the 1950's. An early portable tape machine was brought to make a recording of his comments. After introductions were made the interview began. But the British group leaders had trouble getting their kinda primitive machine to work. They were disappointed. But after asking a slew of questions through a translator, and although never seeing the machine before, the Shankaracharya had it functioning properly.

The whole point of act/potency distinctions, crucial to metaphysical foundations of Being, was/is the common sense experience of change as a real feature of the world. Hardly a priori. But I will produce an example of a priori assumptions, as stated by evolutionary biologist Richard Lewontin...

" It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door".

Have the last word.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

The whole point of act/potency distinctions, crucial to metaphysical foundations of Being, was/is the common sense experience of change as a real feature of the world. Hardly a priori. But I will produce an example of a priori assumptions, as stated by evolutionary biologist Richard Lewontin...

" It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door".

Have the last word.

That is not my a priori assumptions. Nor the assumptions of many eastern schools of thought. The entire mode of thinking, the dualistic framing of the cosmic dilemma appears to be the premise of your a priorti assumptions. Either stuff or no stuff. I am trying to stress "not knowing" down to our basic "common sense(s)" ...... we take for granted. At least to the point of questioning our usual was.

You are not explaining how Aristotle apparently arrived at a first and final cause if not a priori, shortly afterwards initial assumptions.

What is the is rational for circumscribing a possibly infinitely vast chain of causality into a beginning and an end and applying it with an arbitrary potentiality and actuality..... Aristotle used to analyze motion, causality, etc?

Socrates has something to say

The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing. Socrates

[hcap]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

That is, add something (a quantum state, one among many quantum states within a complex physical system, with different numbers of universes related and governed by precise, overarching principles of QM) to get "nothing".

Please explain how that diminishes the significance of elements of the universe creating and un-creating themselves?

Can you weigh or measure god? Doesn't that make you wonder out loud.???

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

For that dash represents all the time they spent alive on earth and now only those who loved them know what that little line is worth.

Whether love and compassion are the parts of ourselves instilled by a creator, or hundreds of million years of evolution and social interactions of sentient beings, those noble emotions make life worth living.

I keep telling box he thinks religion and life to death. The value (purpose) of being is felt, and not so easily thought. But both work together as well.

My childten, my animals, great music, art, literature, and wisdom of others passed on are all points of light in the mix.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

At this point of my life, my ambition for "success", and the "finer things in life" has largely given way...and I am now content to live the contemplative life. My purpose is to get to know MYSELF...and to understand why I think and do what I think and do during the course of my day. "Know thyself and you will know the universe and the Gods", my ancient ancestors used to say...and I endeavor to find out for myself if they were speaking the truth.

If you truly knew yourself, i.e. what you are, you would immediately seek God and beg him for forgiveness.

Further, the only way to truly know thyself is to know something of God, for if Self is your only frame of reference you will love yourself to death, having no referent outside of yourself. To whom will you compare yourself?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

Yes. But if we are lucky we go through various Stages of Life.
Your comment above brings to mind this poem that I heard years ago.



THE DASH
by Linda Ellis

I read of a man who stood to speak at the funeral of a friend. He referred to the dates on the tombstone from the beginning… to the end.

He noted that first came the date of birth and spoke of the following date with tears, but he said what mattered most of all was the dash between those years.

For that dash represents all the time they spent alive on earth and now only those who loved them know what that little line is worth.

For it matters not, how much we own, the cars… the house… the cash. What matters is how we live and love and how we spend our dash.

So think about this long and hard; are there things you’d like to change? For you never know how much time is left that still can be rearranged.

To be less quick to anger and show appreciation more and love the people in our lives like we’ve never loved before.

If we treat each other with respect and more often wear a smile… remembering that this special dash might only last a little while.

So when your eulogy is being read, with your life’s actions to rehash, would you be proud of the things they say about how you lived your dash?

Interesting poem! She tells us what matters not and what matters: But why the one and not the other?

And in your grave are you going to hear the eulogies that were prepared for you? Why does it matter?

Or asked differently, is the goal of your life to be glorified by what others say about you? If so, how would your glorification serve any practical purpose in your death? How do you benefit?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

That is not my a priori assumptions. Nor the assumptions of many eastern schools of thought. The entire mode of thinking, the dualistic framing of the cosmic dilemma appears to be the premise of your a priorti assumptions. Either stuff or no stuff. I am trying to stress "not knowing" down to our basic "common sense(s)" ...... we take for granted. At least to the point of questioning our usual was.

You are not explaining how Aristotle apparently arrived at a first and final cause if not a priori, shortly afterwards initial assumptions.

What is the is rational for circumscribing a possibly infinitely vast chain of causality into a beginning and an end and applying it with an arbitrary potentiality and actuality..... Aristotle used to analyze motion, causality, etc?

Socrates has something to say

The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing. Socrates

And you subscribe to Socrates' "wisdom". Your final word on wisdom is: I'm a proud, card-carrying KNOW NOTHING?

And Aristotle arrived at First/Final Cause by use of his reason and experience. he observed and deduced from Nature (the world around him) the Four Causes.

If Edison's light bulb, for example, doesn't serve any purpose, then why do you buy them and use them?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Mr All Hat, no cattle

If Edison's light bulb, for example, doesn't serve any purpose, then why do you buy them and use them?

Why do you persist?

Actual I now buy LED or fluorescent lamps. Do you still use sundials?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Why do you persist?

Actual I now buy LED or fluorescent lamps. Do you still use sundials?

Why do you buy those? Oh...let me guess....hmm...so that you can enrich large corporations, right? Am I warm? No? Hmm...okay so you buy them for what purpose?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

If you truly knew yourself, i.e. what you are, you would immediately seek God and beg him for forgiveness.

Further, the only way to truly know thyself is to know something of God, for if Self is your only frame of reference you will love yourself to death, having no referent outside of yourself. To whom will you compare yourself?

If your way works for you...congrats. Keep doing what you feel is right...and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. And I will do likewise.

To whom do I compare myself? I compare myself only to whom I was yesterday...and I endeavor to be a little better today.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Whether love and compassion are the parts of ourselves instilled by a creator, or hundreds of million years of evolution and social interactions of sentient beings, those noble emotions make life worth living.

I keep telling box he thinks religion and life to death. The value (purpose) of being is felt, and not so easily thought. But both work together as well.

My childten, my animals, great music, art, literature, and wisdom of others passed on are all points of light in the mix.

Soo...your sole purpose us to feel? I guess we haven't evolved very much, have we? Animals can feel too!

So, tell us...your purpose in life is to feel good about yourself? You are at the center of your little universe, aren't you? Life is all about what makes you feel good about yourself?

Did you know that people can feel very good about themselves by living in their shells and doing virtually nothing in life except, eat, drink, sleep, work and keeping society's rules?