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Old 01-21-2018, 03:07 PM   #5056
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I understand what Paul is saying here.Paul is referring to the spiritual self as I am. That the physical body does not contain the saving graces we need. That if you follow just the desires of the body and neglect the spiritual side, it will corrupt you. I agree with that, but I would not use the wording they used back then which was normal then, but not now.

What I would say in place of what Paul said is that one's life expands and contracts according to how open one's heart is, specifically the spiritual heart. What you referred to here and previously with the quote from Jesus was a condemnation of worldly hearts in love with materialism. That is not the same as the spiritual heart I am talking about because the spiritual heart it is not concerned with materialism. I hope this clarifys my point.
No, Paul is not saying that. Otherwise, Paul would be agreeing with the Gnostics (which he condemned elsewhere) and be condemning our physical bodies because they're evil! He's not condemning or even indicting our physical bodies but rather is condemning human nature, which he metaphorically refers to as "the flesh" -- as opposed to the spiritual.

Moreover, the human body has no desires in and of itself. Desires are produced by our mind, will, affections and/conscience. Human desires proceed from the heart. This is precisely what Jesus taught in Matthew 5. From the HEART proceeds murder, fornication, envy, etc. etc. In other words, from the heart proceeds murderous desires, sexual desires, etc. Also, desires proceed from our sinful human nature. See the following NIV renderings:

Rom 7:18
18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
NIV

And,

Gal 5:16-21
16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

NIV

And the "Spirit" is NOT our natural spirit. It's NOT the flip side of our soul. It is the promised Holy Spirit which, again, God gives only to his chosen covenant people. When Paul says, "live by the Spirit", he's instructing the Galatian church to live precisely how Jesus lived! Jesus always lived by and was led by the power of the Holy Spirit within him.

Understand this, please: Man comes into this world with only a sinful nature. None of us come into it with two natures that we can manipulate, control or cultivate or decide with will become our dominant nature: Sinful/Evil and Sinless/Good. All scripture teaches that man is a sinner because we are born that way. It's our nature. There is absolutely nothing a person can do to change his nature. That is totally beyond our purview and power. This is precisely why a man must be born again if he hopes to see the kingdom of heaven. And this new birth is strictly a supernatural act of God.
Analogy Number One: The new birth is no more under our control than was our natural birth.

If you read very carefully and slowly with the intention of understanding Jesus' words to Nicodemus in John 3, you will learn that Jesus never told Nicodemus that he must do something to enter the kingdom of God, but rather something must be done TO him. Don't miss the pointed Analogy Number Two between the Holy Spirit and the wind. Jesus didn't tell Nick that the Spirit will blow wherever and whenever he wishes it blow, but rather that the wind blows where it wishes. We can no more command the Holy Spirit to come into our lives than any of us can command the wind to cease blowing or change direction.
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Old 01-21-2018, 08:02 PM   #5057
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Old 01-21-2018, 08:04 PM   #5058
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These, too, will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ to receive their eternal reward.
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Old 01-21-2018, 08:05 PM   #5059
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These, too, will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ to receive their eternal reward.
I like my odds
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Old 01-21-2018, 08:11 PM   #5060
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I like my odds
Really? So you think you're more righteous than the con artists?
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Old 01-21-2018, 08:13 PM   #5061
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Really? So you think you're more righteous than the con artists?
What do you think, Willie?
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Old 01-21-2018, 08:17 PM   #5062
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What do you think, Willie?
Doesn't matter what I think, even though all Christians will sit with Christ at the Great White Throne judgment. See Rom 3:10, however, for your answer.
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Old 01-22-2018, 02:20 PM   #5063
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In other words, from the heart proceeds murderous desires, sexual desires, etc.
Don't insult my intelligence. You say obvious lies in order to not admit the truth.

You blame sexual desires as emanating from the heart, not the body when we all know through science that the body produces hormones for sexual desires and the heart does not have anything to do with sexuality. Take a class.

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God gives only to his chosen covenant people.
That's called "elitism" and it is looked upon by us humans as a low and sick form of racism when corrupt politicians do it. Yet you want to label God as that low of a being. Tsk, Tsk.

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Understand this, please: Man comes into this world with only a sinful nature.
Not according to common sense. I don't see babies committing any form of violence. I see them as loving beings and dependent on love. What planet are you on dude (LOL).
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Old 01-22-2018, 03:07 PM   #5064
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Don't insult my intelligence. You say obvious lies in order to not admit the truth.

You blame sexual desires as emanating from the heart, not the body when we all know through science that the body produces hormones for sexual desires and the heart does not have anything to do with sexuality. Take a class.

Of course all desires proceed from the heart. It seems you have a big issue with what your "master" taught -- you know...the one you "believe in" but never believe. He said that adultery, fornication and such proceed from within the immaterial part of man, i.e. the human heart. Why do you think the scriptures often tell believers to carefully guard, monitor and discipline their thought life? Dwelling on sexual thoughts invariably leads to sexual arousal! Take a class in Realism.

Prov 23:7a
7 For as he thinks within himself, so he is.
NASB

Note what Paul says about how Christians should discipline their thought life:

Phil 4:8-9
8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, let your MIND dwell on these things.
NASB

Also, the mind set on the sinful nature is death!

Rom 8:6-8
6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
NIV

That's called "elitism" and it is looked upon by us humans as a low and sick form of racism when corrupt politicians do it. Yet you want to label God as that low of a being. Tsk, Tsk.

You see what happens when you give reign to your sick, depraved mind that is controlled entirely by your sin nature? You cannot think logically. You cannot connect the easy-to-see dots. How could God be a racist when His New Covenant promises are all-inclusive?

Rev 7:9-11
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,

"Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

NASB

Blacks, Whites, Yellow, Red and whatever other color of skin there may be under the sun are included in the above passage -- just not every person from every nation. But if you want to deduce from that that this makes God a "low form of a being", then so be it. Just because God in eternity past has chosen in righteousness to not save everyone under the sun doesn't make you morally superior to him. Just sayin'....

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Not according to common sense. I don't see babies committing any form of violence. I see them as loving beings and dependent on love. What planet are you on dude (LOL).
Didn't say they did. But they come into this world with a sinful nature, and eventually their mind will naturally become hostile toward their Creator. There is not one thing a human being can do to alter his own nature.
This is why YOU must be born again. It makes absolutely no sense for you to cast aspersions upon God's holy character when you insist on remaining in your darkness and not crying out to Him to save you through the person and work of his Son Jesus Christ.
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Old 01-22-2018, 04:48 PM   #5065
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Of course all desires proceed from the heart...

Dwelling on sexual thoughts invariably leads to sexual arousal!

Prov 23:7a
7 For as he thinks within himself, so he is.
First you say all desires proceed from the heart, then you say they are from our thoughts, which means the mind. A contradiction.

FYI, the heart does not think, it knows. So you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Old 01-22-2018, 05:03 PM   #5066
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First you say all desires proceed from the heart, then you say they are from our thoughts, which means the mind. A contradiction.

FYI, the heart does not think, it knows. So you have no idea what you are talking about.
Pay attention! The heart is the seat of all man's faculties -- mind, will, affections and conscience.

Secondly, learn from scripture:

Gen 6:5
5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
NASB

Thoughts proceed from a person's heart because the mind resides in the heart.

Then we have this text describing how Satan fell:

Isa 14:12-14
2 "How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!

13 "But you said in your heart,
'I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north.
14'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.'

NASB

"Said in your heart" -- in other words, Satan reasoned or thought in his heart. See also in this regard Ps 14:11; Deut 7:17; Mat 24:48; Mk 2:6.

And just for the record, I know Jesus is infinitely smarter than you are. So, I choose to actually believe him -- to trust his teachings -- not just merely pay him lip service by saying, "I believe in him".
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Old 01-23-2018, 02:47 PM   #5067
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You are the only human I have ever come across that considers the heart an evil entity.

If you were in charge we would not have Valentines day. Imagine all those "evil hearts" being exchanged.

If you were in charge we would not have love. Love comes from the heart. "Evil" you say.

We wouldn't have a physical body, because more physical hearts. Hearts are bad you say.

We wouldn't have souls because souls cannot exist without a spiritual heart. Hearts are the root of all Evil you say.

Fortunately everyone else on the planet disagrees with your idiotic translation of the "heart" as evil.

Oh, one more thing. There would be no God or existence if the heart is evil because as John 1 says in the Bible God is love.. And where does love originate and dwell but the heart. So God could not exist. You have made the ultimate case for atheists for no God.

You are Heartless.
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Old 01-23-2018, 03:14 PM   #5068
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You are the only human I have ever come across that considers the heart an evil entity.
Thanks for confirming what I always have known: You do not know Jesus Christ personally. After all, he is still fully human and still fully divine. And he taught that the heart of man is evil, completely agreeing with the entire counsel of God. (You do realize that I'm not talking about the physical heart that pumps blood, right?) And the heart is not an entity. The heart is the flip side of sinful human nature.

Also, for the record (in order to correct another one of your misconceptions), people do not think or reason with or by their hearts. We think and reason with our mind, a faculty which is "located" along with our other faculties in hour heart. So...when Jesus asked, for example, "Why do you reason IN your heart...?", he's not saying that people reason by or with their heart. Just for your info...

Oh, and I can't let this one slide by:

Quote:
If you were in charge we would not have love. Love comes from the heart. "Evil" you say.
How many people over all these millennia have killed their loved ones? You don't know people kill out of love, do you? This is precisely why the bible informs us what biblical love must look like. When Jesus said that the two greatest commandments are to love God and to love neighbor, we must know what that MEANS! What does it MEAN to love God? What does it MEAN to love our neighbor? God has not left that to our carnal imaginations to determine how we're going to express our love.

Quote:
We wouldn't have a physical body, because more physical hearts. Hearts are bad you say.

We wouldn't have souls because souls cannot exist without a spiritual heart. Hearts are the root of all Evil you say.

Fortunately everyone else on the planet disagrees with your idiotic translation of the "heart" as evil.

Oh, one more thing. There would be no God or existence if the heart is evil because as John 1 says in the Bible God is love.. And where does love originate and dwell but the heart. So God could not exist. You have made the ultimate case for atheists for no God.
Well..that's a gross exaggeration. All born again Christians know the state of what their heart was before God gave them a new one.

And what does God's love have to do with the corruption of the human heart? (You need to connect a bunch of dots here.) God's love, by the way, dwells only in the hearts of his chosen people made possible by the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Only those born again have God's love within them and have been made partakers of the divine nature and new heart.

Quote:
You are Heartless.
Well, if that's the case then I can't have an evil heart, can I?
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Old 01-23-2018, 03:26 PM   #5069
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You do not know Jesus Christ personally. After all, he is still fully human and still fully divine. And he taught that the heart of man is evil,
Holy Trinity! You are the Devil!
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Old 01-23-2018, 03:38 PM   #5070
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Holy Trinity! You are the Devil!
No, just a messenger of Jesus, who the Pharisees also thought was the devil. But Jesus also told them that their father was the devil, so whose son does that make you?
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